PvP, Social Mode

[Orion Michaels]

Razkar-

I understand exactly what you're saying. I try and work really hard at making sure I play my skills as they are, but I think it's kind of the nature of any rping site that you'd have to be a bit more aware than would make sense, otherwise not noticing anything would make for a dull time.

As far as for your other point, what's to stop them? Their own limitations, their own skills, the situation it's happening in. While the PvP section doesn't directly address the social issues, it does provide the basic groundwork for any of it. In an even match, higher skill wins. If the circumstances allow the lesser skilled to get the jump though, then that's where adjustments would be made. I agree totally that an overall skill set should be taken into account.

Cunning, strategy, yes. Writing skill, to some extent. Not everyone is a wordsmith, if you will, but if they've taken the time to work hard and earn a high level in a skill, regardless of their ability to truly put it down, it still needs to be honored.

How can your character have that cunning and strategy, though? I'd say it comes from your experiences, which translate into xp and lore. You just can't start a new character and be an amazing tactician with masterful aim with your bow, you know?

Jen-

For sure! I don't think that just because you have a million points in seduction you should be able to walk up to someone and be like 'remove your top'. Well...maybe..in the right circumstances....But yeah, it's really a case by case. Like I said to Razkar, it really is something you have to take all circumstances into account. I guess my overall thought is that it seems to kind of work like this, and correct me if I'm way off:

100 Weapon defeats lesser skilled weapon, all things even

100 persuasion can be defeated by a PC whose player doesn't think their character would do whatever they were trying to get them to do, regardless of skills.

It's oversimplified, I know.

I guess the social skills really need to take a lot more into account. I can see myself getting frustrated as Orion's social abilities start to reach higher levels but still get scorned as though they weren't there. As a novice and low competent, I expect to fail frequently at getting what he's trying to, though.

Imass-

While I agree that this isn't a computer game, it's still a game. The 'Writer's RPG'. This isn't 'Whose Line', the points do matter. But I get what you're saying. I try not to emphasize the game more than the writing. I don't have a problem with anyone in particular with this, these are just some thoughts I've had while reading through people's threads and such.

You can look around all you want, be paranoid, try and notice everything, but if you have 5 points in Observation, you still shouldn't notice every detail and spot the subtle things that everyone is doing. If they were constantly looking around, trying to be aware of their situation, but not noticing everything, I'd bet they gain a lot of xp in it very quickly, and start to be able to have backing behind why they can notice the hidden.

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I'm really enjoying the conversation in all this. Thanks for all the replies.

[Brodon Windriver]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and disagree with the whole concept of points being the be-all/end-all of success. If you are clever and have skills such as tumbling or acrobatics that a PC with a higher weapon skill does not have, you may well be able to dodge, or even trip them up, making them vulnerable to your PC's lesser weapon skilled strike.

And then there's the simultaneous strike. Taking the hit in order to ensure delivery of your own. Again if you have some skill that imparts agility in some way, maybe his sure hit with his level 50 can be taken on the arm when it was meant for your torso. In the meantime, because you now have his knife locked up in your arm, you might just be able to plant yours in HIS guts. Since you're so close, even your 25 will still hit. It's all in the believability of your wording and delivery. How well the mod can visualize your move.

As for seduction, sure maybe it works like a charm. But does it wear off? Maybe your "victim" awakens in a strange bed after a night of carnal splendor and is horrified and enraged to see you sleeping deeply with a satisfied smile on your face. And there's that handy letter opener on the nightstand...A rude awakening indeed. Who's the victim NOW?

Or even the quickie. You've talked her off her feet, but when you zip up and say bye bye, she may just launch into a rage of betrayal or even jealousy right there. Hell hath no fury like a woman used.

[Kirvan Deepseeker]

I want to say something, but I feel like if I try to say something important it won't reach the depth you guys are talking at, so I'll keep my two cents simple. I agree that when it comes to a straight-up battle weapon skills play the biggest part, but like Brodon brought up there are other skills that can be used in combat. Basically, just keep the entire skill set in mind when writing, like others have said. I'm not sure whether these skills are set in stone, every skill point is an exact degree better than somebody else. Besides, these skill levels are just capabilities: even experts and masters have bad days.

One thing I'm interested in is how the various social skills work against each other. For exalt, neogtiation and persuasion have a lot overlap, as do persuasion and seduction. Do these skills compete with each other, for example one tries to seduce the other while the seducted tries to persuade or negotiate his or her way out? Is there one skill that sort of trumps the others? Just curious how people regard that.

[Orion Michaels]

To address the combat thing. The pvp guide states that all other things even, high skill will win. So yes, I'm totally in agreement that if you can you other skills to gain an advantage, then you can beat someone with higher skill. All of the examples listed there are using other skills to make change the advantage. I've said that you have to look at all skills as a whole. There are going to be other factors.

As far as seduction, the end reaction is up to the pc or npc. It's really a case by case and wasn't the point I was getting at. I'm not questioning how the skill itself works , but how the social skills should work in relation to other pcs.

Kirvan- when it comes to combat, I think higher skill losing because of a bad day or what not would be an rp decision. Which is fine, I really don't have problems with combat mechanics. Most deal with it themselves and if a mod is needed, there is a solid guide to help.

It's an interesting thought on the overlap. Can't think of it off the too of my head, but I know one of those skills states it cant be used to replace another. I don't think there are any trumping skills. In most cases I imagine people will do what is best for their own story, which kinda rolls into my question of how much people really respect the social Xp ppl earn.

Thanks you two!

[Brodon Windriver]

I think you are going to have to truly PRESENT your argument, even if you have a higher persuasion skill. It may not have to be some mind-expanding new concept, never before articulated, but I don't think a mod is going to go for "Brodon uses his superior persuasion and rhetorical skills to convince Joe Blow that he is right."

If both PC's present logical, compelling viewpoints, then the higher skill should win. But if he cops out with something like the aforementioned blurb, then I think the mod may decide that the PC with the higher skill was, perhaps, momentarily distracted, and didn't express himself to his fullest capacity.

[Rayage]

I kinda feel the same way, that skills are not the end all be all of social conflict. For me, I dont view it as "Oh you have higher persuasion, so I cant persuade you, or I have to be persuaded by you". I like to think about it in a more diverse way, and to me realistic way.

People are complicated. Characters are people too, characters are complicated. Some people are stubborn, and 'know what they know', and no matter what you say, or how elegantly you say it, you wont change their mind. I think what is missing here is the character aspect, how the character will react to what they are presented with no matter the skill. There are people in real life that study speech, and can make a hell of a good argument, who are paid money to persuade people, and yet even their efforts are for not on some people. Its an aspect of personality, and how you can make your words, point your words, to changing the mind of a person. Though, no matter what you do, sometimes you just cant do it. Kind of like, I think its goss that brought this up, the hot chick avatar trying to seduce a male PC attracted to guys. Personality matters...

The first thing they teach you in speech class is to know your AUDIENCE.

[Orion Michaels]

The point I'm trying to make isn't that someone with a higher social skill should automatically succeed in an argument, negotiation, seduction attempt, or any of that. It's to what extent should someone's skill in something be taken into account in your interactions. I absolutely agree that it's a case by case, scenario by scenario, thread by thread, PC by PC situation. I know that there's not any one straight answer when it comes to these. The skills shouldn't stand in the way of good rping, with everyone staying true to their characters. I don't know that I like saying that it cheapens the skills, but that's what I'll go with for now. A masters social skill can be ignored entirely and consistently because people can just say their characters wouldn't go for it. I guess that's why the only thing we get to control are our PCs.


I think it's gotten to the point where the discussion is going in circles.

[Grasis Deviil]

I know i'm new and probably getting this all wrong but when i think of the social skills i didn't see them in the same light as combat things. whereas a fight will last a thread, a persuasion or seduction could last days, weeks, or years. That girl your trying to seduce, maybe she isn't into corny 1 liners, maybe she wants something else. specifically for seduction skill i don't think it should be, how good you are getting her to like you, because that's the other pc's choice of when and if she does. i think it should be, how easy is it for you to identify and do the things she likes. such as a novice in seduction would constantly be using those pick up lines, where as the master would know when to use pick up lines for a one night stand girl, or change to sweet romantic chats and a caring shoulder for the girl that wants a friend first.

But if i'm wrong in my interpretation of the social skills then, i apologize.

[Gossamer]

Unfortunately, under our game system, you do need to take the STAT into heavy consideration. You guys all know that there's always that dweeb player out there that will say ... "My pc will not be hypnotized because he'd never fall for that." Or "My pc would never let your pc haggle my sale item down that far." So the stats DO ALWAYS COUNT. However, you need to take the rp into consideration. If someone has a higher social skill than someone else and works it hard and realistically in a thread, they win. Hands down. That's it. But it has to be rp'd out and realistically as well.

[Elem Bree]

Another thing to take into account is that these situations are not isolated in a petri dish. If you or your PC is afraid of being seduced or hypnotized, avoid people and be the town hermit. If you don't want to be killed or robbed, don't live in Sunberth. If you live in Sunberth, don't wander around in the dead of night with your money on you. Many of these potential and wholly imaginary problems can completely be avoided in the first place by not putting your PC in the situation.

I am not trolling this subject and I understand its message. There just seems to be a common thread of "What if Player A tries to subvert their will on me?". Well, before that can happen, you would have to have an open thread, allow their reply in the first place, then choose to interact with them by responding. None of these situations just happen out of the blue. If you are concerned that someone is hassling you in a manner outside of the rules, that is when you get an ST to help. They are Moderators. They moderate on your behalf and interject themselves as the law in the situation.

Everything else can be avoided. Of course, it may not be very fun to avoid any kind of social interaction with people, but that's the tradeoff. If you never leave your house, you won't get hurt. You also won't have any adventures, make any friends or have much fun here.