Ghosts & Skills

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Ghosts & Skills

Postby Meriann on April 25th, 2018, 12:44 pm

Hello!

I was wondering about PCs who have become ghosts through roleplay, like myself. In the lore, ghosts are only allowed to progress in 3 skills, except if they are possessing someone and then they can gain skills by using the other person's body, so to speak. First of all, can a ghost PC flashback to when they were alive, and gain regular skills this way? And secondly, can a ghost still gain skills in threads that finished before the PC was killed?

Thank you for your time. :)

EDIT: I should clarify that it's not because I want to massively skill grind. I'm aware that ghosts can easily become OP and that would never be my intention. Merely that I'm a little unsure of the rules! :)
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Ghosts & Skills

Postby Gossamer on April 26th, 2018, 3:33 am



Experience Awards As Ghosts

  • Ghosts can only progress in the three ghost skills (possession, materialism, and soulmist projection) on their own.

  • Ghosts can earn XP in any skill in a flashback to their alive state so long as that alive state is post-Valterrian.

  • Ghosts can earn XP in any skill while they are possessing another person. The amount of XP depends on what type of person they are possessing.

  • Ghosts can only use any of the non-ghost skills they possessed in life (if they used to be a PC) during possession of a willing host.

  • Ghosts can always earn full XP for any of their three ghostly skills.

  • Ghost can only earn full XP (5 points per thread per skill) of ANY non-ghostly skills when possessing a spirtist.

  • Ghost can only earn XP of ANY non-ghostly skills when possessing a non-spirtist at a significantly reduced rate (2 points per thread per skill) .

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Ghosts & Skills

Postby Meriann on April 26th, 2018, 7:09 am

Aah okay that's great, thank you so much!
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Ghosts & Skills

Postby Gossamer on April 26th, 2018, 10:03 am


It's important to note ghosts are usually crazy. They can't posses unwilling hosts nor can they posses for long periods of time. Hence it is very difficult for them to become anything but irritants. OP? If you mean overpowered, then no... They really can't be overpowered. They expend their dead djed energy way to quickly. They are designed to give flavor and texture to the game world... that is all.


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Ghosts & Skills

Postby Madeira Craven on April 28th, 2018, 12:58 am

Hope you don't mind me popping in. I'd love to get some clarity on your comment about possession, Goss!

In the Possesion racial skills lore, it says:
With practice, ghosts can get better at possessing others; at first, they will only be able to possess willing targets or highly sensitive people such as gifted children, but as they become more experienced the duration, precision and overall success of possession increases considerably
The skill breakdown says the same kind of thing, that a Novice ghost is all but useless but at Competent can start putting up some fight, and its success rate goes up from there. So is it still possible for a ghost with sufficient skill to posses an unwilling person? The wiki also says a possession can last minutes, hours or even days if the ghost is 'good', but that does seem overpowered.

I just don't want to be cornered by a mod later saying I've been playing ghosts wrong this whole time. :paranoid:
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Ghosts & Skills

Postby Gossamer on April 28th, 2018, 4:54 am



Well, its probably something that needs to be addressed because the Ghost wiki entry (predating possession) says:

"A ghost can possess a person by entering their body. It is to be noted that the person need to be either willing, or in a weak mental state, or they may try to resist possession. A ghost can only possess a person for a short time before it needs to recover, but this is the only situation when they can make full use of all their skills, including personal magic. Possession leaves the host exhausted."


So, not only does it say they need to be willing, or the victim weak.... or they can resist. But it also says they can only do it short periods of time. I think possession needs to probably be toned down to reflect this because long periods of time doesn't seem to reflect the ghost write up at all.

If Tarot was active, we could ask him to clarify. I think ghosts possessing people for long periods of time is probably a misunderstanding in the possession skill. I'll look at it later or have gillar make a call on it.


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Postby Gossamer on April 29th, 2018, 3:21 am



So Gillar and I have been talking.... and we are having a hard time coming up with a solution. I did notice that I made a mistake. Ghosts possessing other PCs can't use -that- PCs skills (If this is somewhere let me know because I couldn't find it though I thought it was the case too), only their own pre-death skillsets... so I've made that change in the list I've added.

What I see happening is simple.

A ghost PC can power up possession incredibly fast (why? I could do it in a heartbeat) using 'willing' NPCs and PCs in threads until they are of a level they are satisfied with (read master) and then go after PCs they want to go after to possess them for whatever reason they have to possess. Now, is anything wrong with this? No... not really. But it leads to issues. It leads to nothing but hard feelings and pissed off players that are in direct conflict and it spills over into OOC. A ghost PC should be able to attempt to possess anyone they want and have a means to 'do it' even if the target resists based on skill and the other PCs skills. As its written, existing PCs can be victimized very easily by new PCs who are power gamers. Or conversely, a player can just state that their PC is 'too strong willed' to be possessed and move on without the ghost being able to say shit about it.

This doesn't work really... see what I'm saying?

It's the same situation with hypnotism that gets abused a lot wherein targets of hypnotism often say they are too strong willed to be hypnotized. I know I hear people say... "But I have hyptnotism and everyone always lets me hypnotize them.." Yea.. they do... because you thread with your friends! But if you just thread with anyone, you get that whole 'I'm too strong willed to fall prey to this..." It's the same with possession.

We need a fair way to be successful to an unwilling player and PC, or to successfully resist if some newb power gamer tries to possess you and you don't want them too.

People say they WONT abuse it. But the fact is... I see abuse over and over again. I see it allll the time from the nicest people. And I always here 'whoopsie!' or 'I didn't mean to do that...' I see abuse flags when I start hearing questions that start with 'How do I do this... but don't worry I won't abuse it..." so I tend to react with a fair way to nip anything in the bud...

It just takes time.

I love Tarot dearly but he never had a dark bone in his body or a will to cheat on anything or abuse anything in his life gamerwise in terms of rp writing. So he didn't tailor his skills with avoidance of metagaming and powergaming in mind. He trusts everyone not to abuse things and wants to give people the absolute best ability to be as free to express their magical creativity possible. But that leads to problems because there are no set stats and no set ways to do say PvP in terms of a lot of his skills like Possession and Hypnotism. I hate touching his writeups, other than clarifying things like body rot rate in Nuits or working on this to fix the sorta overarching issues of PvP or PvNPC statwise.

Another problem with the ghost/possession writeups is that they has no parameters for 'overgiving' that are quantified. This is universal throughout most magics, no matter who wrote them. They don't exactly specify time allowed per level or recovery time. There's just some general guidelines that people can interpret to however they want. Seconds. Minutes. Days. Recovery time? Not stated. It's a bit frustrating. I know this is done for RP creativity, but the problem has always been that lack of quantification means you leave it up for abuse.

I'd like to think everyone plays things reasonably, but the fact is they don't. And truthfully I HATE hard fast rules, but you have to find a nice balance to retain the creativity but still give some quantitative means to avoid the conflict that seems to be built into these PvP and PvNPC issues.

A very similar thing happened with MC where MC was written to be self governing and cost prohibitive. However, PCS walked all over this financial restraint in Sahova and at the U of Zeltiva by having Sahova and Zeltiva foot the costs for the items in exchange for keeping the items the young MC's worked on.... meaning sooo many players power gamed MC up to high levels until they were high earners then set out on their own with huge salaries that then enabled them to buy expensive components and afford to MC at high levels due to the colleges and Us and Fortresses paying for it. I believe this is still an issue in Lhavit too. Its the MC conundrum, though I lay the blame on this one directly at past 'enabling' STs. This ghost thing is the same situation.

Also, there's no way to quantify 'strong willed' PCs. We need a way to define this. So SUGGESTIONS are welcome. At the moment, we're working on a dicing system via the chat that will help with this giving modifiers to people for the 'length of time' played or perhaps the highest of their skills to define 'willpower'.

We tossed around adding in a Willpower Trait feature that was built with post count/gnosis marks/certain skill levels in mind to build it. However, this is awkward because Miz isn't built around traditional D&D stats (STRENGTH, WISDOM, CHARISMA, ETC) and we don't really want to migrate that way. But a Willpower stat might come in handy. We just aren't sure how to make it a non-skill trait or how to determine what a PC's Willpower is... just initiating one gives newbies advantages over veteran players and we aren't going to do that either.

So... we're open to any and all ideas. I'm not saying we will adopt them, but Gillar and I aren't the end all and be all of creativity and a community discussion might be helpful. Otherwise, it looks like a dicing system with firm fast rules will be going in soon.

Goss


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Ghosts & Skills

Postby Paaie on April 29th, 2018, 11:38 am

I always thought the meditation skill was used as a sort of measurement for willpower. I'm not sure where I got that from but it might be an easy solution if you didn't want to go down a tabletop-like route?

If PC1's meditation skill is greater than PC2's hypnotism or possession skill then they resist. Perhaps if the skills are within 5 points of each other then the PCs could dice roll and whoever gets the highest score wins it.
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Ghosts & Skills

Postby Luminescence on April 29th, 2018, 3:32 pm

I like Paaie's idea, though in my opinion I feel like Endurance might be a skill that's a better measure for willpower? Either way it does sort of simplify things and keep it to the system that we have now.
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Ghosts & Skills

Postby Madeira Craven on April 29th, 2018, 7:00 pm

I like the idea of Endurance, but its written as a physical skill. So why don't we make a mental equivalent? Call it Persistence or Determination?
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