Skills et al.

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Skills et al.

Postby Roan Mayfall on May 17th, 2015, 6:12 am

While reading through the Lore I've run into some questions (mostly about skills). I apologize if they're really basic and have clear answers. They are as follows:

When it comes to knowing things such as logic/ deduction/ etc how do we go about that? These are things that can be formal and rigorous, but are also intuitive to some (though lacking notation). They are also a combination of multiple skills like mathematics and philosophy and involved in other skills with no prerequisites like intelligence.

On that note, how do I handle things like observation+intelligence taking place of interrogation if probing questions are asked? Or like escape artist involving picking the lock of a cell, but picking door locks being larceny?

What if these skills are in my heirloom? Would I just then have to post a flashback of my PC reading/ using the skills?

Would parkour just fall under acrobatics? And would throwing knives be under the “Weapon:Knives” skill?

Do I need points in the Philosophy skill to philosophize? Or do I just need to hold back on the quality of my philosophizing until I gain points via threads?

Is there a language of “scholars”? Like how in our world we have latin and/or ancient greek.

How/where do I find what the current year/date is for our characters?

Does this forum run Tex of LaTeX code?

It has been a LONG time since I've done any RPing, but I'm excited to get back into it! I'll probably think of more questions as I further develop my character/answer my own so I'll probably chime in with more.
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Skills et al.

Postby Marina Agamand on May 17th, 2015, 7:31 am

I think I have a pretty good idea about some of these, but if someone else posts here, their opinion takes precedence.

About logic and deduction. You don't need skill points to use them on an intuitive, subconscious level. Every person uses these things to get ahead in life to some degree. Skill points become necessary (and awardable) when you're using logic to solve a qualified problem, for example a criminal case or a complex riddle.

Interrogation is the most important skill when interrogating someone, and the only mandatory one. Having auxiliary skills will merely improve your results. You're bound to gain these auxiliary skills when you practice interrogation, anyway.

Picking locks falls under Larceny. Escape Artist is more about escaping direct bodily confinement such as grapples and manacles.

If you're using throwing knives, your skill would be "Weapon: Throwing Knife". If you're throwing normal knives, it's just "Weapon: Knife".

Parkour would fall under the broad Acrobatics skill and also, I'd imagine, under Endurance.

You don't need the Philosophy skill points to philosophise at all, but if you have 0, the quality of your reasoning will be thereafter. It improves over time as you gain skill points, of course.

About scholarly languages. There's the sparsely practiced Ancient Tongue, though it's more common among mages than among philosophers.

In principle, there are no special initiation measures needed to start practicing any skill except magic. Just do it. Your initial results will be terrible, but it doesn't stop you from trying.
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Skills et al.

Postby Gossamer on May 17th, 2015, 2:56 pm



Let me answer some of these because I utterly disagree with some of the things stated as an answer.

When it comes to knowing things such as logic/ deduction/ etc how do we go about that? These are things that can be formal and rigorous, but are also intuitive to some (though lacking notation). They are also a combination of multiple skills like mathematics and philosophy and involved in other skills with no prerequisites like intelligence.


When it comes to Mizahar, you must HAVE the skills to use them. There is no intuitive/instinctual edge because ALL pcs would utilize this and the system would go out of wack. I know that's not an ideal answer and not true to real life, but once you start using the skill, you get skill points awarded in it.... so start small as a reflection of your level and work up. Don't immediately jump into say concluding because you breed a white pea flowering plant to a red flowering plant and get pink flowering offspring that say Mendelian Genetics exist. Instead start with.... the blood trail leads west....hence the escaped prisoner you were torturing might have fled west.. get it?

On that note, how do I handle things like observation+intelligence taking place of interrogation if probing questions are asked? Or like escape artist involving picking the lock of a cell, but picking door locks being larceny?


They don't. You suck at interrogation until you build your skillset up and get to some higher level. RP it out. We all have to wade through sucking at everything we don't build up on character creation.

What if these skills are in my heirloom? Would I just then have to post a flashback of my PC reading/ using the skills?


You can build any skill up in a flashback you want. It's why we have flashbacks. Your heirloom should be an ITEM that is not magical and has no skills attached to it. For example if your heirloom is a dagger, you don't automatically get points in dagger. You just have a plain old dagger with sentimental meaning to you.

Would parkour just fall under acrobatics?


Yes. Though some people call it free running too. Basically it falls under LORES such as Acrobatics: leaping fences at a dead run.

And would throwing knives be under the “Weapon:Knives” skill?


Yes, we don't separate out throwing a knife verses using it as a melee weapon. I suggest any knife you use you pay enough that its well balanced to throw. If its just a plain knife, your gonna suck at using it as a ranged weapon rather than a melee weapon because its not balanced well. Pay more, utilize the benefit it gives you.

Do I need points in the Philosophy skill to philosophize? Or do I just need to hold back on the quality of my philosophizing until I gain points via threads?


You need the Philosophy skill to philosophize and not sound like a madman retard. Don't RP outside your skill level. If you don't have the skill, sound completely off your rocker until the skill is built up.... or study philosophy in thread.

Is there a language of “scholars”? Like how in our world we have latin and/or ancient greek.


Yes, ancient tongue. It's called Nader-canoch. And its rare that you'd know it so justify knowing it if you have it. Only pieces and parts of it remain after the Valterrian.

How/where do I find what the current year/date is for our characters?


It's always on the front page and current int he wiki under calendar.

Does this forum run Tex of LaTeX code?


No.

It has been a LONG time since I've done any RPing, but I'm excited to get back into it! I'll probably think of more questions as I further develop my character/answer my own so I'll probably chime in with more.


Welcome to Miz.


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Skills et al.

Postby Roan Mayfall on May 17th, 2015, 4:33 pm

Thanks for the answers! I'm just getting my head around the concept of having 50 points for my past and then having the ability to gain 5 in each skill per thread (meaning that over the entirety of the PCs life until starting they learned only a couple skills kind of and then suddenly started learning quickly).

I have one more question before I can make my CS (I hope). Does Mizahar have a well known game akin to chess?
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Skills et al.

Postby Gossamer on May 17th, 2015, 5:00 pm



Instead of wrapping your brain around it.. I would look at it like you are going to feel utterly rewarded doing all that writing and fighting up through the ranks to get to where you feel your PC should stand at skills.


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Skills et al.

Postby Marina Agamand on May 17th, 2015, 5:08 pm

I'm curious now. How do any of these points contradict anything I said?
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Skills et al.

Postby Gossamer on May 17th, 2015, 5:44 pm



If you're using throwing knives, your skill would be "Weapon: Throwing Knife". If you're throwing normal knives, it's just "Weapon: Knife".


Absolutely incorrect. We lump daggers, knives, etc all into the base weapon skill if they are used as a melee weapon or a ranged weapon. You don't need separate skills. It would, as per your example, ALL FALL UNDER WEAPON KNIFE. This is a chronic thing we've tried to snuff out over time here on Miz. It keeps cropping up over and over as misinformation among the newbies.

About logic and deduction. You don't need skill points to use them on an intuitive, subconscious level.


You cannot use skills intuitively without failing at them utterly. They must be trained to be successful. You can't say a PC knows something subconsciously. That's metagaming at its finest here on Mizahar.


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Skills et al.

Postby Marina Agamand on May 17th, 2015, 6:04 pm

People make their weapon skills super specific and it gets approved. Here's the most recent example. I've seen vague weapons skills disapproved on several occasions. As you said, the skill is tied to a specific weapon, but not on its application. Based on that, since a throwing knife and a combat knife are two different weapons, I'd imagine they would be two different skills.


You cannot use skills intuitively without failing at them utterly. They must be trained to be successful. You can't say a PC knows something subconsciously. That's metagaming at its finest here on Mizahar.

That means anyone who starts with Socialization at 0 would be a low-functioning autist, anyone with Logic at 0 would be a drooling retard and anyone with Land Navigation at 0 wouldn't be able to find the mountain in their back yard. This can't seriously be the intention. Every player has, in fact, a minimum of undocumented "skills" required for basic everyday function.
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Skills et al.

Postby Roan Mayfall on May 17th, 2015, 6:11 pm

But I do need to wrap my brain around it. Having a character with a reasonable backstory that makes sense is rather important for the progressing story to be reasonable. I'm not arguing with what you proposed (i.e the joy of working up the ranks), but the two aren't mutually exclusive. I'm not even proposing you change things; I'm just making an observation.

Aside from the chess thing I actually have one more question about skills (though I don't need this one for my CS). When you say using intuitive knowledge is metagaming, would you allow for use of common sense applications of skills people don't have? By that I mean in the way everybody uses logic to think "That bus is big and fast, I am small and fragile, therefore I shouldn't walk in front of that bus" yet most people don't actually know any logic per se.
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Skills et al.

Postby Gossamer on May 17th, 2015, 6:43 pm



*sigh*

Marina,

I wrote the skill system. I designed it. It is in fact how it works. I understand that doesn't translate to the real world, but it is in fact how we translate it here on Mizahar. I understand you might not like it... but even the grading guide and the skill guide is very clear on this fact even using daggers as examples. We do not treat throwing daggers and regular daggers as different weapons here. To say that is wrong is fine. You are entitled to your opinion in protesting that the system is flawed. However, it IS the system we use and you have to abide by it.

I see nothing wrong with Dare's CS.

No player has a minimum of undocumented skills other than the fact that they were supposed to get schooling in the city they reside in (no one survives being born in the wilderness without special permission) and can read and write thusly or speak/write a triad of languages at three different levels.

You can protest all you want but by registering here and creating an account, you are agreeing to abide by our ToU and our Rules. These are our rules.

Goss


Roan-

I totally understand what your saying and see your point. It's absolutely true it takes some time to get used too. But we've been here a long time and are a thriving RPG for a reason. If it didn't work as a system, we would have faded away with all the other games that flare to life and die out.

Common sense is common sense. You don't have to play your PC as an udder imbecile you just can't invent the theory of relativity without some context. One example I like to use is that everyone knows cuts can get infected if not cleaned (and then sometimes they still do). But to say how that happened (ie germs/bacteria/virus') it is too far a stretch without prior skills and a whole host of lores. We would be insane to say you can't intuitively understand a huge runaway carriage being pulled by two frightened seme horses isn't going to kill you. You'd know it would if you don't get out of the way. We are talking larger scope game skill uses. But that being said, your PC doesn't get to intuitively know specific details that he or she doesn't have lore on. There's a 'common sense' line and any ST or grader will point it out to you when they see you misuse it in thread.

Goss




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