Clarification on the cart and wagon on the price list?

by **Sigrun Dominic** on March 12th, 2014, 1:36 am

Hello there!

I've been having a bit of trouble with visualising the actual size and overall appearance of the cart and the wagon mentioned on the Price List.

Neither of them have actual descriptions, however the covered wagon (a better version of your average wagon) is described as:

"An upgraded version of the common wagon, the covered wagon is larger and maintains a cloth cover strapped over a wooden frame which encloses the back of the wagon. Two people can lay side by side with a large chest at their heads or feet."

This makes me think of the size, shape, and appearance of the wagon/carriage in Oregon Trail! Am I right to assume that, or is my imagination a little off?

In spite of this, I'm still confused as to what the specifications (size, shape, weight, amount it can carry) are for the wagon and the cart, respectively. I would like to know this so that I may decide what would be best to attach to a pack horse. I plan for the cart or wagon to hold sacks of food, and a small/moderately sized chest containing of some cooking materials and some survival paraphernalia.

If anyone could shed some light onto this, even just present me with a picture of what the ideal cart and wagon looks like from the Price List (that is honestly enough for me!), I would be very much pleased.

Thank you for taking the time to read this!

by **Ethan Ironhorse** on March 12th, 2014, 2:49 am

So this is my 2 cents, and trust me a founder or ST could very well decide you deserve change after I post this.

So I have a friend that does wagon driving in shows with horses that she trains, and had to ask her the same question. In general a cart refers to a single axle (two wheels) means of transportation. So farmers from the middle ages used, small carts to carry wheat and barely to the miller. Carts are the simplest vehicle that you can drive with a horse. As the two wheels allow for easier turn radius.

Now in the description it says (3 person) Cart. Usually this cart can be pulled by a single ox or horse with up to 450 lbs on it. The weight restriction doesn't come from the animal of choice but from the axle itself. I believe the general rule of thumb is that a single horse can safely pull one half its weight all day with a cart. If you get a draft horse 1600 pounds, supposedly from my friend, it will have to do very little work with a cart.

So a cart is for those of us that have low driving skill (less then 25).

So a wagon is a four wheeled vehicle that can use a team of horse/oxen with a harness. Now a wagon can have high wheels, low wheels, or a mix. The problem with a wagon is that the wheel diameter determines the turning radius and type of axle. The mix wheels didn't really happen till American settlers, so my line of thought was that you could get either a high or low wheel wagon. Low wheels are best for roads/flat areas, high wheels are best for rocky or rough terrain as they can go over ditches/holes without a problem. Now since a wagon has more axles it can hold up to 4000lbs which a team of two horses can pull... very slowly. Usually a team of four is used for such loads. which would mean your driving skill would have to be 40+. Additional wagons can have long beds or be rolling houses. The wagon I think of in Mizahar is the classic roman travelling couch for a covered wagon, or a ore wagon for an open bed one, but a flat bed is still possible.

So... to answer your question, I researched roman wagons/cart and think that is the height of technology that Miz has. What is probably more common is middle age farmer wagons and carts used in carrying produce to market. What I do to describe my cart is use wood framing and little to no metal in its creation. My seat has rope suspension, use by romans, so that when I sit on it, it gently sways during the ride. Otherwise, your imagination is the limit.

Side note, becareful how you load a cart, because its only one axle the heavy stuff needs to be closer on the front half for positive pressure on the harness.

by **Sigrun Dominic** on March 12th, 2014, 7:10 am

Hello Ethan, thank you for your helpful response to my question!

Unfortunately none of the breeds listed in the horse list are counted as draft. However, I suppose it would be safe to assume that a pack horse with the supposed amount of strength to carry the weight of saddlebags can be trained somewhat to carry that same weight on a cart.

Just now, though, I've decided not to use a cart during my travel out of Syliras. Sigrun has such a small amount of experience with horses that I'm afraid it would be too advanced for her to drive a cart just yet. However, I will use this information as a reference in the future, as I'm sure it will be necessary for me to use at some point!

Thank you again!

by **Ethan Ironhorse** on March 12th, 2014, 1:43 pm

Sigrun,

I know it doesn't matter, but any horse over 16 hands is considered a draft horse. I just assumed that when they say there primary purpose is Driving, that its a draft horse.

by **Gossamer** on March 12th, 2014, 4:33 pm

What do you think a Avanthalian Sleigh Horse is? Yes. Draft.

Half the breeds on the price list are drafty cold blooded horses that are used in labor. Seme and Mixed breeds come to mind. Their pictures are even of Draft Breeds.. New Forest in the case of Seme and Percheron in the case of Sleigh Horses. The Warhorses can be used as drafts if they aren't trained for war and is a picture of a Clydesdale.

Carts come in all different sizes.. from pony to draft.

Same for wagons. Think trucks. You have flatbeds, log trucks, general purpose trucks, etc... Wagons are the trucks of the horse world. Carts are like the cars.

Same goes for wagons. Ethan's assumption on the axles are absolutely correct. We didn't list this in the price list because we assumed it was common knowledge since some of the game designers here come from rural farm areas.

Tall horses aren't all classified as draft. I have a 17HH thoroughbred in my pasture atm that's definitely a race horse not a draft. It depends on the build and temperament.

by **Sigrun Dominic** on March 12th, 2014, 5:25 pm

Thank you for responding, Gossamer!

I did some research on draft horses, looked for information on the difference between draft and pack, even looked through some pictures, but I wasn't able to make a distinction between them and the size of all the other horses! I'm quite sorry about that bit of ignorance on my part, I've had little experience with horses. Thank you of course, for the insight. I've also done more research on carts and wagons now that I've been given a better image, and I believe I've come to a better understanding!

Thank you both very much for quick response, the information, and the clarifications! I will take them into account when I write and do more research.