[Skill] Gambling

[Ashivirsthargon]

EDIT: 10-MAR-2010 - Made intro more directly definitive of Gambling and removed references to simple wagering on pure chance events. Restructured sentences for less commas. Added a bit more emphasis to Master level prowess.

Fire away! Don't worry about being gentle.

GAMBLING

Gambling is the art of playing games that involve an element of chance (making the outcome uncertain) and making some kind of wager on the result. From the Akalak dicing game of Snakebones to the rather more primal, bloody game of Talons among the Zith to small children playing games of Stones, the instinct to add uncertainty and risk to competition seems almost universal. The excitement of the game mounts as the stakes of winning or losing grow. This feeling becomes an addiction for some, occasionally bringing them a great fortune in wins, but more often handing them heavy losses. Others simply see it as an infrequent pasttime to add a little spice to an otherwise common gaming event. Still others make their entire living off the winnings of learning this subtle dance with fate. There have even been military encounters settled over a roll of the dice or a flip of the card. Although anyone can play such games, Gambling is the art of playing games involving chance in such ways as to maximize the odds of winning and cutting one's losses.

Gambling in Mizahar dates back to long before the Valterrian. What scant information is still available from that period tells of many varieties of games using dice, cards, and tiles. Many of these games also included special gaming boards and pieces. It seems as the knowledge of mathematics grew, the games themselves become more elaborate requiring an ever-growing knowledge of labyrinthine rules and increasingly exotic equipment.

Gambling after the Valterrian, by contrast, consists of relatively simple games. The loss of so much of the ancient cultures and knowledge combined with a scarcity of resources has made gambling in Mizahar a rather basic affair, often involving very basic dice, stones, sticks, and small weapons. More elaborate games exist, but they exist primarily for those who have the time and necessary equipment to develop them. Establishments specifically for the purpose of gambling are almost unheard of, but the practice of gambling is almost universal, perhaps due to the accessibility of such minimalist games.

The games are as varied as the races, cultures, and regions of Mizahar herself, although many revolve around the same basic principles. Becoming skilled at one game typically means an easy transition into many, similar games, although the fine differences between the rules must still be learned. Most of these games involve a degree of physical aptitude, but as time has gone on, a few have migrated more into the realm of intellect, strategy, and player psychology. Such games are still rare, but certainly available for a student seeking true mastery of the art. Such a devotee knows that games requiring physical ability can be won with the right powder and the right drink, and even games of pure chance can be influenced by the shaved corner of a die.

Prerequisites and Related Skills

Young children often come up with their own games and wagers, so there are no skills that are required to begin learning to play games involving chance. It seems almost instinctual to a certain point. There are several skills that can go a long way in making a gambler more successful. Knowledge of people and their behavior, especially in other cultures, can make Anthropology useful. The Auristic arts can be immensely helpful in "reading" others, but the gambler should be prepared for the consequences if she is caught using them. The same goes for Hypnotism. Mathematics can be extremely helpful in games where such rules govern or help predict the outcomes. Finally, a smattering of skills that help in escaping from a hostile gaming table can be very helpful to anyone seeking to gamble more than casually.

Novice (1 - 25)

Most everyone has a very basic experience with games of chance or placing wagers, but the Novice gambler has decided to pursue it. He knows the basic rules for most of the games played in his culture or region. He has enough experience that he has "heard" some pieces of advice on how to win, but is still sorting them out with his own experience. He typically loses more than he wins, but he learns from his mistakes. At this level, the difference between him and someone with no skill is more about a capacity to learn and improve than actually performing significantly better. He is incompetent at cheating and will probably need to make mistakes in this area in order to learn.

Competent (26 - 50)

The Competent gambler has begun to acquire experience, typically as a result of many losses. She can win roughly three fourths of her games against someone with little skill, but it still easily bested by those who have spent more than a few years studying the games. She knows the basic objectives of some games outside her own culture and has begun to pick up deeper nuances in the rules of games in her own culture. She can sometimes pull off a win against the less well-informed by exploiting a little-known rule. Her wins and losses have started to even out, and she is beginning to develop an affinity for a specific game or two. She can get away with some rudimentary and cludgy forms of cheating if assisted by distractions, another player, or is simply playing against people who are new to the game.

Expert (51 - 75)

The Expert level gambler has likely made gambling either their means of making a living or they do it almost continuously when not making money some other way. They could no longer be considered a hobbyist. The Expert is winning more than he loses, and he knows how to manage his losses so that he never loses too much. He has a solid understanding of the rules of most games of chance, even ones outside his own culture. Most Experts typically choose one game or type of game to focus on simply for the efficiency of time spent versus win ratio versus money earned. Locally, they are known as one of the best at "their game." Experts not only know how to play well and have garnered a lot of experience in what works and what doesn't, they are also very familiar with the common mistakes of beginners. Experts can cheat in ways that are difficult to detect unless the person observing is also an Expert or higher.

Master (76 - 100)

Master gamblers are often found traveling, either to learn new games or to find people who will still play against them. Although they are still subject to the caprice of chance and are still capable of losing, they know the odds, and they know everything they can do to enhance them, and they win almost every time. It is big news when someone beats a Master-level gambler at their own game. Some Masters become "hustlers" who come to a new place pretending to be inept at a game only to win soundly when the stakes are high enough. This is something that can be done, convincingly, as they know all the foibles the unskilled can make, having already served their time making them. A Master gambler has thorough knowledge of all games commonly played across Mizahar and can do well in any, although they often restrict themselves to one to truly hone their art. They typically do not need to cheat, but when they do, it is virtually imperceptible.

[Alistair deGrey]

I know you have to reorder for the wiki anyway, but keep in mind a few things for the organization of the article,

1) There should be a quick intro detailing precisely what gambling is. So as much as I liked the intro, it may have to go under a different section.

2) You may want to divvy some of it up as well. It seems to lack organization in the first part. Its just "Gambling" then bam, a cavalcade of information about gambling headed your way.

3) Just a reminder for when it goes into the wiki, the standard organization seems to put Prereqs and Skills immediately after the intro.

On another note, you seem rather comma happy in a few places. Here, are, a, few, examples,

The games are as varied as the races, cultures, and regions of Mizahar, herself, although many revolve around the same basic principles

((The commas in the list are fine))

More elaborate games exist, certainly, but they exist primarily for those who have the luxuries of time and necessary equipment to develop them.

It seems as the knowledge of mathematics grew, so, too, did the games themselves...

There are a few other places, but you see what I mean.

And about the master level, I don't see anything inherently wrong with it but it seems a bit off to me. The best way I've heard it put is "masters are near supernatural at their craft", and it doesn't seem like a gambling master has hit that in this write up. I don't know, it may be just me. I'd wait for others opinions on this one.

[Charon]

Hey Ash-

I love the culture you're aiming at with this skill write up. I think, in general, that there should be more games and activities scattered throughout Mizahar and roleplayed either in passing to add some culture and content to threads or even some focused threads on these sorts of games. Of course, we'll need to develop more of these games in greater detail!

For this skill write-up, here is what I'm thinking....

Gambling- 1) to play a game for money or property 2) to bet on an uncertain outcome.

What concerns me is that though you can be more or less skilled in a particular game than another person, the act of gambling is simply betting on a chance. If you're cheating, you're modifying that chance in your favor and it becomes less "gambling" than it is "cheating" at the game you're playing.

Hustling- to obtain money by fraud or deception

That's a possibility, I think. It would require lore in the game/activity you're participating in to understand all those rules and a novice hustler would fail at it more than an experienced one (i.e. the other players would catch on or they hustler wouldn't know how to convincingly lose when the stakes are low, etc). But, my point here is that the "fraud and deception" can be skilled, in my opinion. Taking a chance on an "uncertain outcome" is not a skill.

A modern example would be playing monopoly. Lore of monopoly would mean you know the rules. If you've never played, don't have the lore, somebody might be able to fool you or deceive you (hustle). If everyone knows the rules and nobody cheats, it's gambling.

Okay, terrible example, but I guess my overall point is that I don't think "gambling" is the right skill here. I'd like to see it developed a little bit further and detailed a bit more in one direction like hustling. It doesn't have to be hustling, of course, but that's just what I originally thought of when reading what you have up.

But great leg work so far- I think you're onto something here and I can't wait to see what others say and what more you come up with!

[Ashivirsthargon]

Thanks for the feedback thus far. Some of the ambiguities you both have pointed out were things I was feeling while I was writing it, so that's helpful.

The commas are actually all correct, but the sentences could be structured to have to use less of them.

[Aneira Haimati]

What concerns me is that though you can be more or less skilled in a particular game than another person, the act of gambling is simply betting on a chance.

That's a possibility, I think. It would require lore in the game/activity you're participating in to understand all those rules and a novice hustler would fail at it more than an experienced one (i.e. the other players would catch on or they hustler wouldn't know how to convincingly lose when the stakes are low, etc). But, my point here is that the "fraud and deception" can be skilled, in my opinion. Taking a chance on an "uncertain outcome" is not a skill.

I have to politely disagree with this, to an extent.

Not all gambling is based solely on chance. I know a handful of obsessed and/or professional poker players, and I can tell you that there are many times when advanced or professional gamblers are not uncertain at all about the outcome. Many times, they have an uncanny ability of predicting what hands their opponents hold, and their strategies are flawless. The amount of thought that goes into odds is insane. With enough dedication and observation, it's not just betting on chance anymore. (Obviously this doesn't go for every sort of gambling game that exists, though. Some are just based more on chance than others.)

So, especially in some of the more advanced and involved games that Ash mentioned, it may be very possible that a person who dedicated his life to "figuring out" the game would have a higher level of skill.

I do see the point about gambling in itself being based on chance, but certain games being more skilled - but I still think Gambling should be more than a lore, because there really is a lot to it. Maybe the lores should be the specific games, instead, as Charon said? That's a good idea.

I think the skill level write-ups are dead-on, too.

I definitely agree that Hustling should be a skill, too, and would be pretty intertwined with Gambling.

That's my two cents.

[Ashivirsthargon]

I made some revisions incorporating some suggestions.

I liked the narrative flow of the intro, but I opened with a more direct definition that was somewhat restated at the end to make it clearer what I'm talking about, per Ali. Per Charon's suggestion, I tried to make the focus more specific by sticking within the range of games where your personal skill influences the odds of winning as opposed to wagering on events of pure chance, which would need no particular skill.

Per Ali, I also moved things to cull some of the commas to make it flow better, hopefully. I also added a hair more emphasis to how good a Master level gambler is.

The problem with going too far with a Master level gambler is that the nature of the games dictate that there is no realistic way to guarantee someone can always win every single time. That's why I included the ability to cut losses in the descriptions, which is part of being a good gambler. You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run. Also, I wanted there to be wiggle room for meaningful shades of difference between a 75 Gambling and a 100 Gambling.

Personally, I'm not convinced the cheating part or the hustling part ought to be separate skills. I do understand the point, but they seem to me to be more like things you can do as a result of being a good gambler instead of things that need a level of specificity that allows them to be developed, separately. I'll break that part out, too, if that ends up being a reason it can't be lore without doing that.

What else?

[Charon]

This is halfway a response to Aneira and halfway my thoughts regarding separate skills for gambling/hustling, etc.

Aneira wrote:

Not all gambling is based solely on chance. I know a handful of obsessed and/or professional poker players, and I can tell you that there are many times when advanced or professional gamblers are not uncertain at all about the outcome. Many times, they have an uncanny ability of predicting what hands their opponents hold, and their strategies are flawless. The amount of thought that goes into odds is insane. With enough dedication and observation, it's not just betting on chance anymore.

As an avid poker player myself, I agree that the outcome is not always uncertain. In fact, last weekend I was in a casino and had three of a kind on the flop (I had JJ, the flop was 9, J, K). The only other guy who stayed in the pot with me raised me quite a bit but didn't raise pre-flop. This told me he did not have two kings or two aces and probably not even ace, king. The way he was acting (nonchalantly talking to cocktail waitress and then chatting it up with the dealer without really paying much attention to the action) told me he did have a big hand. I folded my three of kind and he revealed his queen, ten (and his winning straight). The point is, because of my lore in poker I realized that I was beat. I gambled by raising pre-flop because the outcome was uncertain, however, based on the actions of the other player and the game itself, my odds had changed considerably. The outcome was no longer certain and even though there was about a 15% chance that I would get another card that would beat a straight, I wasn't going to gamble.

My example is to say that not all games are the same. Poker requires a lot of skill to consistently be profitable. If you have terrible cards, you fold and don't gamble at all, but you're still playing poker. Just rolling a pair of dice is a pure chance. If you wager that you'll get a number above 6, well that's a 50-50 chance and the outcome is completely uncertain. If you roll once and get a 5, then you now have a 66.67% chance that your total will be higher than 6. The outcome is still uncertain, but you have a better chance if you do gamble here. However, you wouldn't know your chances unless you had knowledge of one, how the game was played (both dice at the same time or one after the other) and two, the knowledge of math in order to figure out your odds. To me, this means that if you understand these constraints, you have lore of this dice game.

As I mentioned at the start of this post, this is more of my thoughts to maybe spark some more ideas, but what I'm thinking is that there should be some strong mention of specific game/activity lore tied into the skill levels or general write-up about gambling. I'm finding it difficult to come up with many games that an in-depth knowledge of the game won't help your chances if you gamble on it. Here's a quote from Aneira that goes with my thought process here:

Aneira wrote:

So, especially in some of the more advanced and involved games that Ash mentioned, it may be very possible that a person who dedicated his life to "figuring out" the game would have a higher level of skill.

If hustling or cheating is not separated from gambling, then it needs to be incorporated throughout the skill structure along with the lore. Maybe they're different tactics involved with gambling as you've mentioned, but if that's the case then I guess the write up needs to be more clear on the subject (or if others think it is clear enough then ignore me).

Again, that's my input but I'd like to see what some others have to say. Good work, though- I'm liking where this is going and the cultural implications it will hopefully have throughout Mizahar.

[Miharu Mindi]

Having a character who is a pickpocket and likes to cheat at cards, I just gave him the skill "Cheating at Cards" because there wasn't really anything that covered that in the skills list. Personally, I think of it less in the typical Vegas "counting cards" way and more in the sticky-fingers, larcenous, "palming cards when you fold and using them later" way.

Think Doc Holliday in Tombstone. "What is that now, 12 hands in a row, you sumbitch, nobody's that lucky!"

[Ashivirsthargon]

Right. I can see the argument for them being separate. Personally, I still feel that it's better for them to be included into one skill. It's hard for me to see someone being highly skilled at gambling without at least -knowing- how they could cheat (whether they do so or not is a different story) or being highly skilled at cheating while not knowing much about gambling. But I'm happy to split them out and there's good reasons to do that. I think we might just have to wait for a Blue verdict on that.

As far as integrating cheating into the skill, I mentioned it in the narrative description and, at each level, I specifically delineated proficiency at cheating. I'm not sure how much more I can interweave it into the skill, but I'm open to suggestions.

[Miharu Mindi]

Yeah, I just imagine that if Murdoch played cards without cheating, he would lose horribly. Therefore, cheating and gambling can't really level at the same rate. Does he need to know how to play cards? Absolutely. But if you're really good at palming cards and someone sits you down at a card game you've never played and explains what you need to win, you'll probably have that tucked into your sleeve within five hands whether you know the strategy of the game or not.