Tock's Scrapbook - Eccentric Ramblings

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Tock's Scrapbook - Eccentric Ramblings

Postby Wart on September 13th, 2012, 5:10 am

I fought myself for a while on whether or not I wanted to contribute to this here publicly, but honestly this entire topic hits so close to home personally I can't help it.

I myself am in a relationship with someone "transitioning," so to speak, to a male physically. As you mentioned he was someone born with a female sex but male gender, and Monty hit it pretty much right on the nail on the issue.

This is obviously deeply traumatic. If I had a woman's body, I know I couldn't stand it, girls being icky and having cooties and all that.


And I can say that in this society that it really is hard. For the both of us. I can't begin to explain the fear that's present constantly, no matter where we are. There are just so many ways that the narrow minded people in our small town can and do see it and so much potential for them to pick at it. For one we're ridiculed by homophobes ignoring the whole thing and ignorantly claiming it as two women being together. Then of course transphobes who pick at him for the whole principle and throw homophobia over at me for being with him. And of course so many who seem desperate to try to convince him and themselves that its all a result of some psychological thing or a phase that can simply be "fixed" or "cured," as if its a freaking disease.

I wish I could say that we ignore all of that and have "come out" regardless but I can't. Only just this year he finally came to his family about it and they've come to be incredibly accepting. My own family however is viciously homophobic, to say the least, and I can't even bear to think what their opinions would be on transgenderism. Monty also mentioned disowning. It's pathetic to admit that that and even excommunication are at the height of my own concerns. I'd like to think I wouldn't care about either of those two, and that my fears are over exaggerated, but I'd only be lying.

I really do wish I could get through people's heads everything Tock said. I have seen first hand how painful it is to feel something inside that's the complete opposite of the outside, and having to put on a mask to hide it. Depression and suicide rates alone are so hugely effected by all of that. If society could have any sort of empathy and just imagine that feeling there'd be a lot more understanding and acceptance. But as it is far too many will continue in hard headed ignorance and refuse to let in any other sort of perspective or way of thinking. And too many still will continue with pursuing others for it, leading so many to remain trapped by fear.

Frankly I don't get it. I really don't. Even if you're firmly set against it all for religious beliefs or what have you, what business is it how other people run their lives? I think a huge problem in this world is that too many people are overly occupied with what everyone else doing as apposed to trying to lead their own lives and learn and grow and contribute. So much time and money is spent on debating over gay marriage. Meanwhile we've got economies going to the dumps, revolutions going on, and millions of people starving unemployed, destitute, abuse of every sort, underground sex and slave trades...

But oh no. A man marrying a man? A woman marrying a woman? Holy. Freaking. Crap.


Oh and I have to say. Like any relationship we've got our issues, but he is more of a gentleman than any other "straight" or "sexually technical" guy I have ever personally known.
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Postby Minerva Agatha Zipporah on September 13th, 2012, 5:37 am

I'm glad that me bringing this up prompted you to have the courage to talk about it. I can only imagine how hard it must be to bring something like this out to public light, even in a space that is a) online (which people think is easier because it isn't "real life", but emotionally it CAN be just as real), and b) a relatively small community (I don't know the 'active' population of Miz since there are so many inactive accounts and alts, but as a community it's certainly less than, say, the town I live in or the college I go to). And personally I respect you a great deal that you're able and willing to stand up for something you believe in, both in your offline life and here.

As for the question you raised:

Frankly I don't get it. I really don't. Even if you're firmly set against it all for religious beliefs or what have you, what business is it how other people run their lives?


I have a story to share that might shed some light on that. While a lot of it can be seen as simply prejudice and hate, for some people there is a deeper issue. One which, while I disagree with it on a personal level, I can respect the reasoning behind.

In 2004 I lived in Washington State and worked at a Pizza Hut. I knew a girl there who was, in most ways, intelligent, open-minded, and good-hearted. We agreed on a lot of things. The one thing we adamantly disagreed on was gay marriage. As I've already said, I support it and think everyone should have the right to marry who they chose. She was strongly against it, which surprised me considering how open of a person she was in so many other ways. Part of it came from her religious views (she was a devout Christian). But after we had a long conversation about it one day, a deeper reason came up.

I asked her something very close to what you just said: "How does it affect YOUR life if other people, people you don't even know and likely aren't friends with," (since her prejudiced views made me quite sure she had no gay friends), "get married? They're making a choice about what to do with THEIR lives, and it doesn't affect anyone but them, so it should be their choice."

Now, as much as I disagreed with her, I do have to respect her response. She said, "Because I don't want my children growing up in a world where that sort of thing is considered okay."

The reason I respect her response is because I simply said, "I don't want my children growing up in a world where it ISN'T okay."

At that point, we agreed to disagree, and it never came up again. But I've never forgotten that conversation. Because it showed me something. It showed me that it's not always about hate. I saw her perspective there as a view where she considered this to be morally wrong, and didn't like the idea of a society where such an injustice (from her perspective) was allowed to continue.

I am on the opposite side of the fence. I think the true injustice is restricting these freedoms. I think it is morally wrong to not allow people to make their own decisions. This girl and I both looked at it as a question of right and wrong, as a question of what society should and shouldn't allow. We were just on very opposite ends.

Had she said "Because I hate gays and think they're disgusting and we don't need their kind here," I'd have seen nothing but hate.

But the simple fact of the matter is that I supported her right to express her opinion. That's the killer thing about "Free Speech." It has to go both ways. It has to apply to the things we don't want to hear. All voices have to be heard, no matter how small, no matter how much we disagree with them. Because a hundred some-odd years ago, it was a small number of people that believed in and fought for the right for blacks to vote. And later for women to have the same right. And there were people who were offended by this very idea. People, yes even women, who said that they shouldn't get the right to vote because it would "contradict women's natural roles as wives and mothers." (That is a direct quote from my Communicating Gender book, "Gendered Lives", by Julia T. Wood). Some people at the time felt that equal rights would damage the traditions and culture of our society, and that it would damage the growth of families and lead to a nation without mothers.

Do I agree with those views? No. But, these people believed in something, and they wanted to protest and declare their beliefs. And I think they had as much right to express their beliefs against equal rights as the other groups had to express their beliefs FOR equal rights.

I look at the current issues the same way. I don't tolerate hatred, bigotry, or prejudice. I cannot stand people who think that people shouldn't have the same rights just because they are different in some way. I don't think they should be able to enforce their views on others. But, like it or not, I have to respect that they have those views. There's a saying... "I may hate what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

I hope that our country (speaking from the perspective of an American; I don't know enough about similar laws in other counties to speak about them) continues marching forward. Lots of states are fighting to change the laws here to allow gay marriage. President Obama supports gay marriage (which is a change from his earlier stance, but that's another discussion). I hope to God that one day we have full equality, and no groups need to deal with such hardships.

But I'll still defend the rights of people to speak out against the things I believe in. Because if they can't speak out against the things I believe in, what right have I to speak against theirs?
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Postby Poison on September 13th, 2012, 8:10 am

Like Wart I’ve contemplated posting in this Scrapbook for a while. Even on Mizahar (which seems to be a rather open minded community in general) there are probably some people who are homophobic or transphobic, but in the end this issue is too close to my heart for me not to adress it.

I’ve struggled with matters of gender identity and also sexual orientation for as long as I can remember, but growing up with an incredibly conservative family in a small village in rural Austria I didn’t even dare to hint at the fact that there was something different about me. There were no resources for LGBT-people anywhere nearby, nobody to talk to, and the internet was still in its infancy.

It took years and a move to the other end of Europe for me to even think about coming out. Since then my experiences have been somewhat mixed. I’ve met people who’d rather see anybody that is different burn in hell, who think that gay/trans people have brain damage and should be locked away for the rest of their lives, who even think that violence is a good solution, but also people who just don’t care because this is after all just one aspect of a person.

I wish it weren’t the case, but sadly most of my family seem to be in the first category.

What I find strange is that a lot of people don’t even have a good explanation for their hatred. There was this guy at my uni once. There was a gay pride parade taking place that day, and he went on and on about how much he hated those freaks and that in his opinion gay people weren’t capable of real love, of any deeper feelings – he looked as if he were about to have a heart attack, his face was a rather intense shade of red – but when asked why he hated gay people so much, he just couldn’t come up with a good answer. It wasn’t a question of ethics for him like for Tock’s acquaintance, he was just speechless.

Like Wart I’ve never understood why gay or trans people are such a big issue to some when there are so many other things going on in the world. Why do they care so much about how other people are living their lives? Why do gay or trans people make them so deeply uncomfortable?

As long as the people in question are happy, it really shouldn’t matter. We are all adults, and nobody’s getting hurt. Gay people love their partners just as much (or little, I suppose) as heterosexuals do, and transgendered people only want the kind of life that most others take for granted.

As for free speech? I share your opinion on that, Tock.

Despite everything I’d rather live in a world where people are allowed to express their views, no matter how negative they are, than in a world where you aren’t allowed to say what’s on your mind.
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Postby Nai'shee on September 13th, 2012, 10:06 am

Now, I too struggled to decide should I post here, but because I don't share your opinion. Actually, I'm not sure which side to hold. However, I mean no disrespect. I think I just don't know enough to form opinion on this and I think your points of view might help me.

You see, I met three openly gay persons in my life, and I know that they don't differ from heterosexual people one bit, except for them being transgendered or simply homosexual. I look at them the same way. I usually don't even question sexuality, unless I find a person attractive. Being friend with someone has nothing to do with their sex or gender. My best friend claims to be bisexual. I have no problems with it. It's something natural. I also do think they should have right to do as they wish and I think society is twisted for not accepting that.

I'm an agnostic, so I have no problems with it when it comes to religion, but I don't understand Christians who do. They think God is the only and ultimate judge, why do they keep judging other people then? And, after all, if democracy really exist, no religion should be mixed with law and thus is no argument against gay marriage.

I mostly support gay marriage, but I still have doubts, due to the following.

I agree with Tock's friend on some level. It's not that I don't want my children to consider that normal. I just don't know how would that influence generations to come. If I was raised by homosexual couple I'm pretty sure I'd grow bisexual. I don't know how would my children react on same things. Of course, I wouldn't mind them being bisexual. It's something they can't change, after all. Part of them. But what I'm afraid of is whole society turning to homosexuals. Of course, I'm not quite sure of that, because I have no knowledge to prove that would have any psychological or genetic influence on later generations, so for now I claim it would with no prove. If we take that hypothesis, natural reproduction rules would be influenced. Of course, it doesn't matter that much with modern medicine, but it's still something I can't begin to imagine. I don't know if it would have any consequences, but it has potential to end human kind, combined with some natural disaster, which is likely to happen in following centuries due to ecological crisis.

Still, I know that's something natural people can't change and I could never dare to forbid them to be happy because they're different than me.

I guess I still stay on the side which supports LGBT, but I'm still not quiet sure where am I.

As for my country, it's incredibly hard to come out here. People will be violent and harass you for listening to different music or if you dress differently, oh my God, they would literally kill you for supporting different sports team. I can't begin to imagine someone coming out. People are extremely homophobic here. I would say 'differencephobic'. I think global self-esteem of my country is pretty low and people prove themselves by harassing others. It's just 'easier' if others have different opinions, tastes or sexuality, because they 'prove' their opinions, tastes and sexuality are 'better'. I can't even talk about that or explain that, because I simply don't understand their hatred.

I would appreciate any feedback, replies, mainly to first part of the post, because that's as far as I can go by myself and I want to hear other opinions to see if they can help me build my own.
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Postby Montaine on September 13th, 2012, 10:29 am

The idea that a parent's sexuality influences the child's is demonstrably false. MY parents were straight. Plenty of gay couples have kids and no correlation has been reported to my knowledge. Any increase in non-heterosexual sexualities among the children of homosexual couples would simply be the effect of a more socially liberal environment. A gay kid is less likely to stay in the closet out of fear if his or her parents are gay too.

The concept of homosexuality threatening the continued existence of the human race, again, is flawed. Homosexuality, bisexuality they aren't contagious, the level remains between 2-10%. Of course, we currently have a serious overpopulation problem on our planet, which is one of the greatest threats to human existence. A few fewer babies would help, not hinder, the continued existence of the human race.

And of course if, for some bizarre, hypothetical reason, the next generation was entirely homosexual, the human race wouldn't die out. Gay people aren't impotent, and with IVF treatment and surrogacy people would still continue having kids. Except there would be no accidental kids, only people vetted by the system would have kids. The level of births would drop from dangerously high to an acceptable level. So, rather than dying out, it would actually save mankind from a gruesome, starving death.

All of that said, you make me smile. You come from a deeply, socially conservative background and yet profess the views we all should. You give me hope that someday the entire world will catch up and homophobia and transphobia will be a thing of the past. I had no doubt that it would, but you are evidence, right here, right now, that it is happening. Thank you.
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Postby Mealla Stormsong on September 13th, 2012, 11:47 am

I have to echo the whole parent’s-sexuality-having-no-influence-on-your-own-sexuality. Both my parents are straight, and my father is pretty homophobic, and that’s had no impact on my sexuality whatsoever. I’m bisexual (perhaps even pan). I’m not very open about it online because I’m a pretty private person, but I am. I’m attracted to both men and women. Gender and sex just doesn’t factor; it’s not important. I’m also a Catholic, but, in regards to religion, I’m one of those who frowns upon people using their religion as an excuse for intolerance. Christianity is supposed to be all about tolerance and acceptance – the whole ‘love thy neighbour as thy wouldst thyself’ thing (I love that quote. It got me an A* in Religion at school. Genius!).

I suppose being around people of various sexualities made me think about my own, where I might not have done before, and therefore helped me to discover what it was, and that it is all right for me to fancy the pants off both Emily Blunt and Dan Stevens at the same time, but it didn’t make me me. I’ve always been what I am. I just haven't always understood.

I think a lot of the intolerance and prejudice is to do with insecurities and feeling threatened. People never like what is different to them. Hopefully that’ll change.

So that’s some of my thoughts and feelings on the subject. I’ve been following the last few posts, so I thought I should contribute, even if it’s not much.
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Postby Minerva Agatha Zipporah on September 13th, 2012, 12:54 pm

I'm on my way to school shortly and thus don't have time for a long post at the moment. But I just wanted to stop in and thank you all. For keeping this an open and free discussion. As far as I'm concerned, all opinions are welcome here, as long as they're expressed in a thoughtful and constructive way. People can't grow and be more open if we don't express ourselves, even if you think your opinion will be an unpopular one.

Communication is a powerful thing. We live in a digital age unlike any that came before. At no other point in history could a group of people openly engage in a discussion like this when the participants come from new jersey, Colorado, England, Austria, Serbia, and wherever else.

When I made the first post on this topic, I didn't think I'd get a single response. Instead there is an intelligent and open discussion happening, and that makes me happy.

I've learned a lot from this that I didn't know before, and I hope I'm not the only one. The words we use and the way in which we talk about things shapes our reality. It changes how we view and understand the world. So please don't be afraid to ask questions or express a different point of view the way Nai did. Because if we don't talk about such things, we'll never find out what other people believe.
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Postby Nai'shee on September 13th, 2012, 9:13 pm

I guess you're mostly right, Monty. I mean, you're right about all the things that could influence my opinion, not to start any more or less off-topic discussions here. I would just like to state I'm still not convinced about parent's sexuality not having influence on kids. All of you mentioned having straight parents and not being straight, but I would like to hear opinion from the point of view of child raised by non-straight parents. It became just curiosity now (psychology freak), I... well, I really had some silly theories, I realize you're right. But I'm still curious about that. Imagining myself in that position, even naturally driven into opposite gender (sex), while looking at people of same sex being attracted to each other every day in such an early age I think I'd develop bisexuality (straight sexuality from natural urge, and homosexuality because of seeing it every day). Kids at young age copy their parental figures, thinking whatever they do is right, thus, while their character still isn't formed and their hormones are still inactive, such an exposure could lead to changing to bisexual, not just showing what you were the whole time.

Montaine wrote:All of that said, you make me smile. You come from a deeply, socially conservative background and yet profess the views we all should. You give me hope that someday the entire world will catch up and homophobia and transphobia will be a thing of the past. I had no doubt that it would, but you are evidence, right here, right now, that it is happening. Thank you.


*blushes* *goes completely red* Ahem- Now I feel kind of proud. I agree that there is hope, but I'm still somewhat pessimistic about this topic. There certainly is growth in numbers of people supporting LGBT population, but I feel most people haven't really thought of this. I know many people supporting them, but when you try to talk about it they show disrespect or simply don't know what to say. That's kind of people who just want to show they're liberal, but won't really ever do anything to help.

Mealla Stormsong wrote:I think a lot of the intolerance and prejudice is to do with insecurities and feeling threatened. People never like what is different to them. Hopefully that’ll change.


You're completely right and it would be great if society was a bit more liberal. Unfortunately, that isn't likely to happen any soon, since we're programmed to like similarities. For example, we subconsciously copy body language of people we like and they notice it, also subconsciously and that becomes part of the bond. That's just an example, but that's how we work: the more similar we are the more we like each other. However, that alone can't be an excuse to those looking down upon different people just because there are less of them. They don't have to like them, that's their own personal choice, but they can't just make prejudices about them.

Tockie, thank you for starting this topic in the first place. I think it's very useful talking about problems like this and making it public here, on the Internet, even although it's just in Mizahar scrapbook. I agree digital age has given us a lot of new opportunities. Without Internet, I would hardly be able to express or even build up most of my opinions, since I barely have anyone to talk to about such a things. Thank you very much for bringing it up at all and allowing us to see other beliefs.

What I think is, people should stop judging others for who they are and start judging them for what they do. I really don't understand the law, where it's legal to get only 10 years of prison for a murder (I also thing prison is really stupid thing, but that's also another topic), but illegal to marry someone of same sex. I really can't realize why should it matter what person acts like if it doesn't do any bad to anybody.
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Postby Minerva Agatha Zipporah on September 14th, 2012, 12:13 am

Part of it is really the "nature vs nurture" argument. I think in most things, it's a mix of both.

Consider this (a topic that came up in my gender class) : If most young girls grow to have feminine habits, and are nurturing, maternal, and prefer feminine things like clothes, make-up, and dolls, etc, is that because they were born to be that way? Or is it because their parents encouraged them to be gentle and lady-like, and discouraged them from getting dirty, roughhousing, and engaging in other masculine activities?

Likewise do boys develop to be 'tougher' because of their higher levels of testosterone, and something in their Y chromosome that makes them less likely to be emotional? Or is it because boys are encouraged to roughhouse and play sports, and discouraged from crying and expressing feminine traits?

There's valid arguments to be made on both sides.

So we can extend this to ask the question: For someone who is homosexual, are they 'born that way', or are there things in their environment that led to them developing those traits? Communication scholars and psychologists have studied both sides, and there's valid points on each side. Perhaps it is something innate, something inside you from birth. Or perhaps there was an influence whether in your family or in society, such as media depictions. We're heavily influenced by the things we see an experience growing up. As a personal example, I have memories of being young and seeing pictures of women that drew my interest long before that interest would become of a sexual nature. Just thinking that the women were pretty. Did exposure to those pictures, whether it be on television, or magazines, or even posters that were hanging in my babysitter's son's room, influence my development? Was I born heterosexual, or did those pictures have an early influence on me even before puberty brought about an actual interest in such things?

Now, I don't want anyone to think this means "Having gay parents will make you gay" or "Having straight parents will make you straight". But, there are influences all around us. Maybe it wasn't my parents... maybe it was the girl named Erin that I knew when I was in kindergarten who was my first innocent childhood kiss. Maybe it was the pretty woman in one of my favorite childhood movies. Maybe it was because I saw not just my parents, but other couples in town, who were heterosexual and that made me feel it was what was right for me too. Maybe it was all of these things... and maybe it was none of them. Maybe I was born to be heterosexual no matter what I saw or experienced around me in life.

What I think is more important than "Why am I straight" or "Why is someone gay" is the deeper issue of acceptance. If you found out that there was a study that showed (purely hypothetically) that children of a gay couple are 75% likely to be gay themselves... would that matter? Is there something wrong with that?

There shouldn't be anything wrong with whatever people turn out to be. Gay kids of straight parents, straight kids of gay parents, gay kids of gay parents, etc etc. Regardless of whether it's genetic, or something in our souls, or something caused by media influences, or some combination of all of these things, the end result is people are who they are. And should be accepted as who they are.

Nai'shee wrote:I know many people supporting them, but when you try to talk about it they show disrespect or simply don't know what to say. That's kind of people who just want to show they're liberal, but won't really ever do anything to help.


One thing we can all do to help is talk about this sort of thing openly and constructively. Awareness is a strong tool. When people don't talk about things, it allows oppression to continue because it gets ignored. Words are strong. Just bringing it up, being open, and exploring all different viewpoints is helpful. Everyone here has a different perspective. We don't all have to agree. But understanding where someone else is coming from, that is a powerful thing.

Nai'shee wrote:Unfortunately, that isn't likely to happen any soon, since we're programmed to like similarities. For example, we subconsciously copy body language of people we like and they notice it, also subconsciously and that becomes part of the bond. That's just an example, but that's how we work: the more similar we are the more we like each other. However, that alone can't be an excuse to those looking down upon different people just because there are less of them.


This is very true, whether people even realize it about themselves or not. Here's a really good example: When the Planet of the Apes movie with Mark Wahlberg was being filmed, they had multiple types of people playing apes. Monkeys, chimpanzees, gorillas, etc. All the extras got put in their costumes and make-up and kept it on all day. What they noticed over time was, when it came time for a lunch break, people were segregating themselves by the type of monkey they were dressed as. All the monkeys sat at one table, all the chimps at another, all the gorillas at another. People didn't realize it at first and none did it on purpose. But, like it or not, people are drawn to those that are like themselves. It's often subconscious, even among people that don't think they have prejudiced attitudes.
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Postby Iris Timandre on September 14th, 2012, 12:59 am

I love Tock?

/Adds nothing good to the conversation.
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