Codex Discussion Thread

[Prophet]

As promised, I am opening this thread up for the exclusive discussion of improving the current Codex. Some of the articles have eluded my editorial eye to date but this thread is for more than just content.

Feel free to make suggestions about layout, arrangement, etc, etc.

It has been suggested already that the Linkmap not only be first but even have its own thread simply because it's so often used. Share your thoughts on this as well as the topics of the NPC library or the layout of the city's groups and organizations. If you think of something I haven't mentioned, do share it. I'm open to hear all ideas on how to make Ravok's information better, more thorough and more user friendly. That is all.

[Sayana]

Something else regarding the link map, can the locations of the South Trading Post and North Outpost be included in subsections on the main link map? Instead of having visit the two individual pages to see the locations specific to the subgroup?

For example:

Ravok City
- Noble district
--> Link
--> Link
- Merchant district
--> Link
--> Link

Southern Trading Post
- Link
- Link

North Ravok Outpost
- Link
- Link

It can also have its separate page, with the locations of the Southern Trading Post / North Outpost repeated in an individual list. But it's helpful to see the see the entirety of all locations (to the smallest size) on one page. Rather than to find out later "Oh, I missed all these because I forgot to look at the Outpost page(s)."

Credit: Shimoje

[Sayana]

I have a few general notes and discussion regarding the codex. So far, not in any particular order. And I may have more to come later as I consider the codex further. But here they are:

General Notes and Comments
1) It feels like a giant wall of text. Is it possible to make it more readable by adding small pictures, subheadings, even short lists… Just to help break up the wall.
2) NPC Library – Skuld is listed twice (Black Sun Officials)
3) NPC Library – Ebonstryfe Officials: the list is starting to get too wide for my computer screen size (yes I have a small computer screen), so it’s falling out of the box code template.
4) NPC Library – Nearly all NPCs listed require ST permission. I totally understand it for Druvin, however, could there be a couple of lower ranking NPCs available for use without mod permission? Or ones with low skills? Even though I can usually present a good case to use a NPC, I find it’s often an automatic roadblock to using certain NPCs if they require permission. And then they just don’t get used. So I think it’s important to be selective on which ones do require mod permission.
5) Oh, could you get rid of the “Crow Picture” on each page. It doesn’t add to the Codex and would be better replaced by a picture more relevant to the section.
6) City Guard – At one point, I believe Prophet was trying to distinguish the city guard versus the Ebonstryfe and why/how they had different roles. And then I realized why (in my opinion) people didn’t make the distinction. The “city guard” is so bland and plain that nobody remembers it, compared to the interesting and unique name of the Ebonstryfe. It feels like “the third wheel” and never comes to mind when thinking of the Ebonstryfe and the Black Sun. In Zeltiva, there was a nice balanced triad: the Sailors Guild (trade), the University, and the Navy (militia). Yet in Ravok, it feels like there is a lot of overlap between the city guard and the Ebonstryfe, and it simply doesn’t feel like a balanced triad, if that was the intention.
7) Families – just a question, are most NPCs (eg shopkeepers and the like) assigned one of the main families? If yes, then great! If no, it might be worth considering adding to some of the NPC descriptions. Otherwise, it’s hard to feel the family’s influence on every day NPCs and interactions.

Credit: Shimoje

[Sayana]

More stuff!!

City Guard:
So after the momentary discussion with you on chat I realized that two main things were lacking from the City Guard – NPCs and a proper location.

Both of these could help better define this faction/group. NPCs who are members of the city guard will make it feel more real and influential. Like at least 2-3 (and of different rankings). And then a location such as a barracks or office or headquarters.

Another important way to help better define them (in contrast to the Ebonstryfe) would be to make a list of the different tasks or ‘scope’ within each group’s domain. For example:

City Guard:
- Day to day law enforcement
- Arrests within the city
- Patrols
- Customs duties (for trading caravans)
- Interrogations in the Black Hole (or is that for Ebonstryfe?)
Ebonstryfe:
- Specialty missions
- Patrolling and duties outside the city of Ravok
- Investigations into treason, uprisings, etc (does this fall into Ebonstryfe jurisdiction or Black Sun?)

On second thought, maybe the Black Sun’s duties / jurisdiction might help too. Since now I’m getting confused about who would do what. Since they are religious, no doubt, but also have those sneaky infiltration skills. So there’s got to be a practical reason for that. They can’t all be preachers.

Black Sun:
- Fill me in

Honestly, even as I was attempting to write out duties, I was getting confused as to who would do what. Also, I see instances of a lot of Ebonstryfe (4455 to be exact), with only limited roles and job duties to keep the peace within Ravok (a population of 15,000). That means almost 1/3 of the population is Ebonstryfe…. What the hell are they doing?? Excuse my language. Hm, that’s something to ponder. Alternatively numbers could be adjusted.


NPC Library
I mentioned the Syliras NPC Library as a good example. I’ll also mention the Sahova NPC Library as another good example (I might even like it better).

You could sort out the numerous Ebonstryfe as “high ranking” or “low ranking” Ebonstryfe, which you either need permission or you can self-mod. Similarly for Black Sun Officials.

Other Family NPCs you could note that some need permission, while others can be self modded (and then identify each accordingly). If any NPC fits multiple categories, it might be nice to see them in both. For example, Xerin Galatos. Or at least, I remember once wondering why I couldn’t see him in the Galatos section.

Actually, on the topic of NPCs, you might want to message Elias Caldera about a couple people he mentions in thread and whether he’d be willing to do some write-ups.


Remove universal information (not specific to Ravok)
- Is Jobs/Expenses truly necessary as a section? Or could it be made more Ravok specific?
- Under the “Ravokian Links” section, a bunch seem like newbie links and not particular to Ravok.

Credit: Shimoje

[Rohka]

The last paragraph in the 'Cuisine' section outlines how the Ravokian fashion/clothing is like. If it was under a separate section of its own, it would be easier to find.

The "Other Important Links" box has links to Gillar's Creator Insights, which I find incredibly useful. I'm still reading through them, haha; he clarifies things about Ravok (especially points in the 'Social Design of Ravok' and roles of the Black Sun) that I didn't find in the Codex. Perhaps we could transfer some of those insights directly into the Codex as quotes?

[Tierra]

1. The first three posts are more appropriate to be more summarized and the full brutal detail should be elsewhere (the lore page comes to mind). They are really just MASSIVE walls of text at the very beginning that don't really do anything for the codex's use. We shouldn't have to compete with those in terms of looking for information.
2. I am going to also agree with the Linkmap bits Sayana and Prophet both mentioned, pull it out as it's own group.
3. Much like how Syliras has the NPC library (and apparently Sahova too) I would also echo this. Having them there is important, but they should be more seen.
4. I would like to see that the Factions get their own breakdown threads. Similar to how the Sylrian Knights have their information (granted it was for a perk system) but the skill reqs and stuff were also there. It made it easier to find.
5. The ratio to population and citizens is crazy I would also agree. This is also something that was brought up in Syliras too, but it was also just ignored
6. The tirade in there about there 'not being a caste system' is not... Necessary. There is a system of sorts, a societal system. A caste system is just a rigid formed societal system, can this be rewritten to make it clearer? Maybe lose a bunch of the words and a lovely diagram would be easier to understand. Keeping the words that are important. This was mentioned above as a NOTE from the creator, but it would fit much better with the societal system information:

That is to say they will not be made slaves and will receive full, unfettered protection on the part of the Ebonstryfe against any outside threat; including outsiders. Even slaves hold this protection against outsiders.

7. There is mention of the Familes, but without some Wiki searching you won't find information on them... AND there isn't much there either to be honest. It would be nice to see the Family information and any NPCs made for them tied together. As Sayana mentioned it would show their reach and power.

I am sure if there is more I will bring it up to you.

[Evarista]

I have some loose thoughts, not about the current codex structure, but about the lore that I think is missing there. I'm willing to contribute content on these topics if necessary.

The families and their relationship really need to be expanded. Currently the general impression is that the only entity that actually does anything in the city is the government. Black Sun this, Ebonstryfe that. Some families are totally lacking NPCs. I went looking today when starting an event thread and had to do a thorough search before I found a single NPC that was conductive to a family intrigue plot. The family power dynamic is an additional layer that should add depth to what goes on in the city as a whole. Otherwise it's just always "the Black Sun did it". The theatre construction event chain is the only such thing I've seen in my year here and it's a very welcome addition, but the basic lore needs to be fleshed out and be no smaller a part of the codex than the government is.

Another small thing that has been bothering me for a while is the population and how it's proportioned between the organizations. The codex lists total population as 15 000. Of that, 4455 are Ebonstryfe members. That's pretty absurd. A society where just 10% of the population are soldiers would be considered heavily militarized. Supporting a larger army than that is simply not possible or practical, especially in a pre-industrial society, even if we take magic into account. Like this, every third person you meet on the street would be an Ebonstryfe trooper. That doesn't reconcile with common sense, and it's not how anyone plays it in practice anyway.

Tying in to that, it would be valuable to have an industrial and administrative organization map (both formal and informal) where it becomes clear how the city is run and where it gets its resources. It might sound boring, but having such a thing would make further lore development significantly simpler, because it will give a clear idea of how the city actually works. It will also make it much easier to incorporate the city's unique features in the roleplay, and will define official roles and positions for PCs and NPCs to fill. Right now it feels like semi-abstract concepts floating around in a vacuum and often bumping into each other.

[Prophet]

There's a lot of useful information here. It's a lot to take in. It's also going to be a lot of work. Having remade Endrykas' Codex from scratch, I can tell you it's a deep process but Ravok has far more to it than Endrykas ever will.

That being said, I think (I believe it was) Evarista gave the idea that the Codex should be divided into separate threads. My rationale says this would certainly help with the rebuilding/reworking aspect by breaking it up into smaller pieces.

Ravok-the City
Black Sun, Ebonstryfe, City Guard
Ravok Families

Then the Linkmap and the NPC bank would be stand alone. Thoughts? Which one first?

[Sayana]

I think I agree with the division of the codex... Two seconds ago I was typing that I agree, but then I wondered where and how the "Miz Lore" pages fit into things.

I've noticed that lately STs tend to make an all encompassing "Codex" page, and then the traditional "lore" pages either get neglected or simply not used when gathering/composing info on the cities. I don't have strong thoughts either way in regards to the organizational scheme (lore vs codex), but I just wanted to point out that there are other pages on Miz that distribute the information onto multiple pages so it's easier to read section by section.

It might be that it's harder to update lore pages (due to coding, needing an account, and/or process & approvals), and hence why STs have developed the "Codex" format. I'm not really sure, but I wanted to point it out in case the traditional lore pages got forgotten.


Personally, I've heard the most interest regarding the Ravok Families and the City Guard (the latter due to it not being well-known / well-understood prior to Prophet's leadership of Ravok).


Also, just a question about the Ravok dog breeds... is there a dog breeder in Ravok? Are there 5? Five seems a bit excessive for a city this size... but if no one is willing to trade dogs with different families... unless it's all rather informal. Do people care if there are mutts?

[Prophet]

I think I agree with the division of the codex... Two seconds ago I was typing that I agree, but then I wondered where and how the "Miz Lore" pages fit into things.

I've noticed that lately STs tend to make an all encompassing "Codex" page, and then the traditional "lore" pages either get neglected or simply not used when gathering/composing info on the cities. I don't have strong thoughts either way in regards to the organizational scheme (lore vs codex), but I just wanted to point out that there are other pages on Miz that distribute the information onto multiple pages so it's easier to read section by section.

It might be that it's harder to update lore pages (due to coding, needing an account, and/or process & approvals), and hence why STs have developed the "Codex" format. I'm not really sure, but I wanted to point it out in case the traditional lore pages got forgotten.

As someone who has redone an entire city and now delved into two others I can say, with confidence, that it boils down to one being far easier than the other. The Lore is old, interwoven and hard to navigate. Trying to fix someone else's work-especially when it's scattered across a zillion pages is far more work than just setting up a thread and tagging posts of information. That's my preference, anyway.

Personally, I've heard the most interest regarding the Ravok Families and the City Guard (the latter due to it not being well-known / well-understood prior to Prophet's leadership of Ravok).

The City Guard has always been a part of Ravok from my understanding. Gillar explained the purpose and mechanics of it and I do intend to -eventually- flesh out their fortress in City Centre...someday. I've felt this to be the pull as well and am formulating a plan of attack.

Also, just a question about the Ravok dog breeds... is there a dog breeder in Ravok? Are there 5? Five seems a bit excessive for a city this size... but if no one is willing to trade dogs with different families... unless it's all rather informal. Do people care if there are mutts?

Each family will have their own breeder. Trading would produce mutts. As I said in the OOC, the dogs have practical uses but it's ultimately just a status symbol.