Should people be able to start as Knights?

[Dusk]

Okay, here's what's going on in my head right now:

We've had a lot of people recently start as Squires, and are earning their way to being Knights. We also have a few people who have started as Knights and, per the current rules, simply have to work steadily towards filling their prerequisites and they get all the benefits of being a fully initiated Knight - the only hang-up being that they have to wait until they meet their prerequisites to get their Knighting Quest.

Now, I've been running Syliras for about a year now and I have yet to run a knighting quest. Dimi's officially broken ahead of the pack, with Markus in a close second. I love watching them work so hard to get their character built and have them rewarded with becoming a Knight. But it makes me wonder if that shouldn't be part of the process for anyone who wants to be a Knight. Just from a management position, as a DS I can't keep track of every single Knight player and how they're progressing in their skills and whether or not I need to encourage them to meet their prerequisites - if they're not super excited to have their modded Knighting Quest, there's no incentive for them to work towards those skills instead of just RPing whatever they'd like while still collecting wages, having access to weapons and armor and horses and free housing, and power in-character.

So my question is, does the player base/other staff think it's fair to restrict starting characters to squires instead of knights? I think it's reasonable, since it still allows people to begin the game as Squires and makes it possible for them to become Knights as quickly as they're able to put in the work, and they still get the use of weapons/armor/housing, but the advantages of power and money are withheld until they earn them IC. But I don't want to upset everyone, so I'll let you guys weigh in!

As a note, this would NOT be retroactive - anyone who already has a Knight without eh prereqs would not have to change their characters.

[Jocelyn]

I'm all for people having to learn things.

I considered starting as a Knight but the character develop that comes with being a squire and the quest is just too good to pass up.

[Jokor]

Well in my honest opinion being a knights requires blood sweat and lots of hard work.
that and it makes the jobs for Dusk easier, no seperatly tracking all the knights with not all the skills. Just waiting for the little squires to come walking proudly to mama dusk with their character sheets in hand showing the skills they learned

[Rayage]

I believe that earning such a title can be rewarding, and those who dont want to earn it and become a knight right from the get go shouldnt have the title because of the simple fact that they didnt work for it. Besides all the work put into becoming a knight and earning the title will show through in character and show that yes they are serious about becoming a knight and therefore deserve the title and the position.

So, yeah, I agree with Joker. Hard work and sweat and blood.

[Jaelyn Baroth]

I'm pretty much in agreement with everyone else here, especially since that's the way I'm doing it anyways. Like Jocelyn I thought about starting as a Knight, but decided it would feel more natural to work my way up.

The one exception that I think might work would be like how Alevadra Druva is doing it. Her character is starting as a Knight, but she is doing all the work needed to become a Knight in flashbacks, and as far as I know has not done any posting as an actual Knight. It's very similar to starting as a Squire, no access to reward without work, but works for those who want to have their character have been a Knight for a while.

[Dimitri]

I totally think players should have to earn Knighthood first. Just as a PC went through the grueling trainings of being a squire so should the writer. Train the PC and writer together. Not too mention by forcing players to start as squires, they will be more likely to reach out to the other current squires for training. Myself, Jaelyn, and Markus, and hopefully Jocelyn soon, all train together constantly. I consider Jaelyn and Markus good friends OOC and ok friends IC. Allowing a Knight to skip this process makes for both a lonely knight but hurts the knights as a whole. And being a squire writing my muscular butt off to become a Knight, I personally get a little miffed at seeing "ghetto knights" as I call them. They get the money, they get freedom to travel, etc, things us squires cannot do until we complete our training. A true Knight must earn the skills, must meditate beneath the Windoak, and must complete his quest. And if you are a current ghetto Knight, I fully believe y'all better get your flashbacks into gear and stop masquerading as real Knights until you've earned it.

-Dimi

[Markus Andres]

*Bravely goes against the river and calls the Dusk a jerk*

Let them choose for themselves.

I don't see much of a problem with them starting as knights. John Griffin was a knight and so is Wystern - Griffin was doing alright before he vanished and Wystern is doing alright.

*is washed away*

[Tarot]

Just my two cents, but you are taking a certain risk by centralizing all quests in your hands. Mizahar was designed so as to create as few bottlenecks as humanly possible. We wanted a game that could give its best when properly staffed, but could run decently and give people a good time even in the event of staff shortages. Even with the exceptions, like gnosis, we offer an alternate route to accomplish something without a moderated thread. It wasn't done on a whim, we saw games collapse when they got mod heavy and the mods couldn't satisfy the demands placed on them. People get busy or lose interest. It's normal, but it should affect the rest of the player base as little as possible. Graceful degradation, in IT lingo.

You are moderating the busiest city in the game. If you suddenly get five requests for knighthood, you will have to honor them all. It will be the most stressful kind of thread too, since the PC can't progress until it's done. The kind of thread that gives a mod a guilt trip for not posting, and gets the player nagging when it slows down. Also, you need to consider the problem beyond your own tenure as a DS. If you ever step down someone will have to take over, and no one will be able to become a knight until we find a replacement. So, while the decision is yours, I'd like you to consider why things are the way they are now. I think there is a difference between being a divine agent and being a knight. My stance on these matters is to give out extra goodies to people who go the extra mile and choose the moderated road. Like, they may get promoted to the next rank faster than someone who just starts out as a knight.

In a nutshell: sorry for being unpopular, but I'm doing my job here.

[Dusk]

Tarot,

I feel like you're sort of answering a question here that I wasn't asking. As it stands right now, all Knight Quests are moderated, either by me or by the staff, because it requires interaction with the Windoak. That wouldn't change at all - right now, whether you start as a knight or a squire you end up getting a moderated thread, but if you're a Knight you get it as a Flashback. So... this question wouldn't change a thing about whether or not they get a moderated quest, just whether or not they get it before they get the benefits of being a Knight or after. And this is something that was instituted by Jen and that I've kept. I mean, I could easily make it so that the staff isn't required to do modded threads with anyone, but i feel like that's a big advantage of playing a Knight and sort of an incentive to get good players into Syliras instead of it just being chock-full of new players with no experience. Retaining veteran players is a HUGE challenge in Syliras, and this was one of the ways me and Jen tried to do that.

So um... question was whether or not they should get the benefits of Knigthood as a starting PC, not whether or not anyone should get a modded thread.

[Gossamer]

Believe it or not, on another game, I spent years ... about 8 irl... leading a group of Knights much like the Syliran knights. Some of you might have heard of a game system called Dragonlance with their Knights of Takhisis, Legion of Steel, and The Solamnic Knights. I loved rping warriors hell bent on righting the wrongs of the world. I did it for so long I can't simply stomach the thought of doing it now.

Anyhow, that rp was so entirely rich, rewarding and beneficial that I completely missed it here on Mizahar. People drop out. Very rarely do folks finish what they start. I wanted a fast track to knighthood that would keep people in the game and interested in those epic knightly doings. I see nothing at all wrong with people starting as a full knight and then working up to hone their skills in order to advance in the knighthood past that. I think each and every one of you discredit the people that go this route by saying you feel its not 'earning it' when in fact it is. They have to work just as hard as you do, get just as many skill points, jump through just as many hoops.

I really just want to say 'how dare you!' claim otherwise when it so blatantly isn't true.

What is actually going to happen, and I can see it now just by this this thread, is your going to go from diverse options to one option based on the opinion of less than a handful of people, and that's going to close down the knighthood altogether and make it more vanilla than it is now in regards to how its done. Why is this important not to happen?

When you are a squire, you aren't trusted. You can't give orders and take action. You can't be stationed elsewhere or sent on dangerous missions in other lands. Squires are nurtured, sheltered, held close to Syliras, and trained up in a manner that keeps them limited. You aren't trusted with super secret info. You aren't suddenly able to break into espionage (cause you know the knights have those positions - they just don't advertise it) or bark commands and expect them to be obeyed. It just feels so limiting doing it one way. It also feels a bit 'disrespectful' of your fellow players to say they haven't 'earned it' when they start out as knights rather than rise up through being squires. Dimitri is rising up now, but guess what? We've been open two years coming up in August. He'll be the first to 'make it' if he even does. That's .. sad and tragic all at once. We should have a game well populated with Syliran Knights and we just don't. We allowed folks to start out as Knights just to help that fact and now we have a couple. If we got some good solid 'leadership' types in Knight roles, we'd definitely have the rp burst onto the scene and everyone would want to join.

It just takes one grand adventure.

As for the question Tarot answered that you didn't ask, Dusk... he needed to answer it. It was the pink elephant in the room, hon. GP is completely and utterly amazingly talented at spotting them and spotlighting them while everyone else tiptoes around them not seeing it.