Infection and Bacteria in Medicine

[Aleron Mangrove]

I was considering putting this in the Help Desk, but I was told it's rather overwhelmed, and this is something I'd like to find out the answer to sooner rather than later, if at all possible. Question is below.

So, I've come across something that confuses me in Mizahrian medicine. There don't be appear to be any items that sterilise or clean wounds (other than of course water for cleaning such a thing). Why is this an issue? Well...

I don't really buy into the:
'Well, it's olden times, of course they don't know about bacteria!' Explanation.

While at first glance this sounds and looks like a perfectly logical explanation, Mizaharians have three very distinct edges over us mere humans, as to why they would discover such a thing far earlier than we did.

Firstly, Auristics. Unless I've misunderstood at some point, Auristics can, if used in the correct manner, be used to view someone's internal processes (internal bleeding, etc), as well as (from the wiki on it) 'establish whether an object is cold or hot without having to touch it'. If this is a relatively simple use of Auristics, surely, if one were to look into someone's aura more deeply, search more intently, they would be able to find illness, infection in a wound,the micro-organisms we would call bacteria. Of course, they don't know what it is, exactly, but they'd be able to work out that it's something bad. Maybe there's a herb or a plant or something that deals with such a thing, or maybe we use one of the chemicals we know about now (bleach, rubbing alcohol), or maybe they just use heat, cauterisation, to deal with infection. I simply find it very hard to believe everyone just happens to glance the other way when they see something like that.

Second point, the Mizaharians are in a concentration unparalleled almost (correct me if I'm wrong here), compared to the approximate respective era that corresponds to human times. Even if just by throwing random things on wounds now and again, someone's bound to find out sooner or later, and with people in such close proximity, news of such a thing wouldn't take long to spread, around that city at least, and then across Mizahar. As previously stated, they wouldn't know about 'bacteria' as such, but then, they don't need to, all they need to know is that there's 'sickness' there, that enters through wounds (openings in the flesh) with whatever name they choose to call it, and how to kill it - it's entirely possible they might consider this as some sort of evil spirit entering, making its home in them, I have no idea, that just sounds vaguely plausible as an explanation that might be accepted.

This is, really, the big one, that it's almost impossible to argue against, I feel. Rak'keli, surely, would have shown her followers such methods, and they would perhaps have passed them on? The only way that this could really be argued against, would be that it's somehow sacrilege for them to teach others such things, but that sounds a little far fetched, I feel.

I'm not suggesting anything radical like advanced anti-biotics, but a plant or herb that acts similarly to penicillin as well, perhaps? Just a thought.

Really, it's as simple as, person gets wounded, wound becomes the source of illness. Surely someone would be bound to notice?

Is there anywhere in particular this should go, other than here?

Thank you for taking the time to read!

Edit: Added a third point.

[Liyana Winterflame]

Maybe an extra section to the medicine lore, and then a few new items on the price list.

Both the points are convincing.

[Phoenix]

I think one very important thing that you're overlooking here is the Goddess of Healing. All of your examples are under the assumption that there is no one with the Healing gnosis anywhere in the vicinity. I would hope that you would go to someone with a healing gnosis before someone with Auristics.

As it were, there are many things that the Healing Gnosis can do that solve the problems that you mentioned- the sanitization for instance is something that an individual with one mark can do. To even further that train of though, the sanitization can even be glyphed so that others without the mark can easily use the ability, to an extent.

You have to think that Mizahar is a post apocalyptic world and they are still working on putting themselves back together. Yes, some races and cities are more advanced than others, but since whole regions are on the brink of starvation and can't even travel across their domain, I think that developing these advanced medicines would be restricted to places that are further advanced and wouldn't be anything that was widespread anyway.

That being said, there ARE medicines in Mizahar. I have a healer PC, and there are Doctors all over the place. The difference is that the medical techniques in Mizahar aren't all that different from real life, you just have to play to the level of sophistication in your city/region. Sure, there might be unique plants and things in Mizahar that don't exist in real life but we have to wait for those to be written up with their medicinal properties before we can use them. That's what the World Development Forum is for.

For the most part, your whole question took a long tangent and really confused me but I think I (mostly) answered your question.

x

[Aleron Mangrove]

Ah, thank you! I added the point about Rak'keli after it was pointed out to me in chat (as I said, don't know all that much of the history/lore, didn't even know there was a healing goddess!) My primary point, was, simply: There should be some item that sterilises things, as one doesn't seem to exist currently.

Didn't mean to ninja edit your post!

[Eleret]

I'll start with the caveat that I don't know what source you're looking at in the lore to say there's 'nothing'. Nor exactly what context you have in mind for disinfection. But you don't need something super-special for sterilization/disinfection/antiseptic usage, either. Alcohol, vinegar, boiling in water, heating in fire, and washing with soap are all classics, and about as widely available in Mizahar as can be. I think lime/alkali can be used as a disinfectant also, and it looks like ammonia dates back to Roman times. And I'm sure there are a number of herbs with antimicrobial properties (e.g. thyme) that the Opal Order and others might know about. So rather than 'nothing', I'd say there's actually lots of things. Just not the dedicated chemicals we're more used to thinking of.

[Aleron Mangrove]

Primarily I was going off: http://www.mizahar.com/lore/Price_list#Philtering_.28Medicines.29
But you're right, and I didn't even think of vinegar, but I think that'd be a relatively weak disinfectant? I'll look into more.
I'm relatively certain that it's only very pure (rubbing alcohol, 95-98% proof or so off the top of my head? Strong enough to leave you blind if not outright kill you if you drank it), is the type that can be used to sterilise.
Washing with soap sort of works, but it's by no means an at all a thorough method.
Lime, again, it would perhaps get, at best, a majority, it almost certainly wouldn't be a measure that would be, dare I say it, highly effective.

But yes, you're right, and the think probably rather than having a dedicated herb for it (which was just something I thought I'd pass over as a possibility), it would be nice to have some sort of standard, as the best I can really think of that would work, would be finding a load of alcohol, and concentrating it down to almost nothing with a still or some such, until there's a usable amount. Reasonable, I suppose, but still, I feel it would likely be nice to have an item for it, of some sort, seeing as knowledge of such infections would probably be pretty standard, at least among those who know something basic about medicine, and as such I feel it should, really, be more readily available than it seems to be at the moment.

I agree completely on the points of boiling/heating with fire (cauterising the wound).

Thank you for your help!

[Evalin]

Actually you can use alcohol found in your ordinary drink to sterilize a wound, if you REALLY really REALLY have to. Whisky and Rum was used for the longest time before medical science started to put the pieces together about pure alcohol being the more effective method. Now I would not want to bet my life on this method, but I am sure there are medical practitioners that sterilize a wound with some form of alcohol, simply because it is easy to obtain and has been show to have at least SOME effect. Lol yes it is better to have a higher proof, but I would honestly expect most within Mizahar not to know this little fact.

In short, I would not be surprised at all to find a doctor pouring whisky over a wound to disinfect it (not going to harp on the different meanings of the words, but you get it). Whether or not this is really GOOD for an open wound though I think is very much up for debate haha.

One more note, and I do not know if this has been said yet, but I am sure that most healers in Mizahar know how heat can sterilize your equipment as well, such as needles for sewing. Just going to throw that out as well

P.S. One last side note, Mizahar is, like Jules pointed out, post apocalyptic, and honestly hygiene is not the best in most cities. With this in mind I really do not think most doctors even consider how sterile their working conditions are. Most probably think if you clean a wound and such it will be fine, not stopping to think that that dirty slab that they operate on should be cleaned as well. Thats not true for all places of course, but then in a world where dozens die daily, and the population as a whole is struggling to survive, hygiene tends to fall to the wayside and thoughts of sterilization are probably at the back of these people's minds.

[Phoenix]

Not everything available to a PC is ever going to be be listed in the lore. That's where the creativity comes in, the knowing your city and understanding its limitations come in. Creativity plays a key role in any role play site or and sort of writing, and this is a prime example of that.

Never expect every minute detail to be laid out for you.

[Gossamer]

I am constantly shaking my head at what people ASSUME auristics can do, from superman like x-ray vision to pinpointing cancer for healers. I've watched people play auristics like a replacement set of eyes, and its just absolutely astonishing how badly that magic is abused and used for everything under the sun when it was not designed to be that way. Also, I have to laugh at people thinking they can 'know' bacteria and germs exist. No, you can't. This isn't modern day. This is Mizahar. And while folks know sickness is sickness, they don't know why and often they don't even know methods of transfer of illnesses. They can learn this but they'd have to test test test and on people as well over and over again mad scientist style. It's interesting how modern day people can't 'unlearn' what they know to put themselves in the places of people that don't understand broader concepts because they don't have the technology to do so. I mean even now we can identify viruses in real life - and understand how they replicate themselves etc - but we still can't even decide if they are something that is ALIVE. A hundred years from now, even three hundred, people are going to be shaking their head and wondering how we couldn't know.

[Verilian]

All I have to say is.. google. Seriously. Just google medieval medicine practices. Like people said, alcohol can be used. That's probably the most common. Plus, the lore actually states:

Healers with a singular gnosis mark can also purify deeper wounds with their touch, improving sanitation and eliminating the threat of dangerous wounds going septic or developing infection

So.. it's in the lore.