[Verilian/Sira's Scrapbook] The Truth.. as I See It

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[Verilian/Sira's Scrapbook] The Truth.. as I See It

Postby Verilian on September 28th, 2012, 2:39 pm

Lol, she kind of inspires me to try my bard character again. ..wouldn't be quite as epic music playing in my posts, but that's because it would be me, playing my clarinet. Alas.. I have no open character slots, but maybe one day. I need to practice again anyway.
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[Verilian/Sira's Scrapbook] The Truth.. as I See It

Postby Verilian on October 2nd, 2012, 9:19 pm

Providing that gentle shove..


So, I sometimes get complaints from people about other STs (of course they aren't going to complain to my face if they have a complaint about me, so as far as I know this scrap isn't about me) involving the players not knowing what they are supposed to do. This is a very tricky subject in roleplaying, and it's even more difficult to address in play-by-post rp. I am by no means an expert, but I would like to try to give my views and advice on the matter.

There are two styles, polar opposite to one another, that are often done in regards to this and both of them have their strengths and weaknesses. The style that I usually hear complaints about is when an ST (or Dungeon Master, or Game Master, or what have you) is too vague. They want the players to figure out everything for themselves, but they don't give enough information for the player to do it, and sometimes don't give any information at all.

The other style is when the ST takes too much control, doesn't give the player any choices or chances to figure out things for themselves, and the players are led along a straight line with only one way out.

Both styles have their merits, of course. In the first one, the players feel like they've truly accomplished something when they finally do figure out what they are supposed to do. In the second one, the players are able to keep the story moving along steadily, and don't get bogged down with hard decisions.

But to make a truly good story, (or dungeon, or whatever) in my opinion, requires a careful balance of both. On the one hand, you want the players to feel like they are figuring out things for themselves, but on the other hand, you don't want them to get bogged down for hours over what should be a simple decision but they don't have enough information to realize that. You have to judge when it's okay to give the players a nudge in the right direction, sometimes. This is doubly important in play-by-post, where making a decision could take not hours, but weeks or even months of posts. What takes five seconds in a live roleplaying game could take five days in pbp. Don't be afraid to drop hints, for the sake of moving things along.

While glancing through some DMing tips, I found this to be helpful. Though it applies more to tabletop, it can be applied to Miz as well.

Don't force players into blind decisions

Don't force players to make decisions when they have no way of judging the possible results. These blind decisions are pointless. If the decision doesn't seem important the players will shrug and pick one randomly. The players won't feel empowered, they'll feel like they're doing grunt work. The most common case is picking a corridor in most D&D games. Most of the time the characters don't have enough information to judge which direction is best and will just pick one arbitrarily. Those players haven't been provided an interesting decision, their decision might as well be resolved by a die roll. (That said, it is possible to make an informed decision in some cases. The players might listen at a door to guess what is beyond, a rogue might scout ahead, magic might be invoked to divine the results of going down each passage.)

If the decision is important the players will spend hours arguing over entirely hypothetical risks and rewards. All of the analysis in the world won't make it a rational decision if you have no data. A slightly cliche example is two doors. All that the players know is that behind one is certain death, behind the other great reward. It's a frustrating choice. A more realistic example is planning an attack against an a powerful opponent who has unknown defenses. If a Shadowrun or Cyberpunk group cannot get any research about a corporation they need to raid the only plan they can put together is to hope that things work out for the best.

Ultimately decisions need to be made with some level of understanding about the possible results. The information doesn't need to be perfect, but something needs to exist. The information doesn't even need to be easily acquired; finding enough information to make an educated decision may be a key part of the story.

Quote from: http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/gaming/gmtips.html


Now, again, some of that is a little out of scope from what I am talking about. But the general idea still applies. If a player can't make an informed decision about something, they are going to feel frustrated. I'll use an actual Miz thread as an example now. (with the ST's permission, of course)

Phoenix wrote:
Image

"Follow it! GO!" The words would send the two women surging into action after the fleeing creature. "And hurry. The heat of the creature makes the walls of this place unstable." Stepping quickly to Sira and Tia, Priskil took each of their hands in her own, pulling them forward and talking more softly, but quickly. "Pay attention to your surroundings. And remember, Light is more powerful than you think."

With another blinding flash, the Goddess was gone, leaving the two alone in the wake of the monster, completely enclosed in a bubble of glowing golden light.


Full post here


Now, I'll admit, I had no idea what to do here. All I knew is that I was in a bubble of light. Didn't know what the light did, or anything like that. I could have experimented, but in truth, the only reason I knew what to do in the next post was because I talked to Phoenix beforehand.

This is just one example, and sometimes doing something like this is okay. In fact, the thread turned out just fine, so there was no harm done. But let's pretend that I didn't talk to her OOC, that the thread didn't turn out okay. Tiaue'a and I probably would have spent several posts trying to figure out what our bubbles did, which could have taken weeks in real life. Depending on how much info Phoenix gave us, it could have even taken longer, or we could have gotten ourselves killed because we didn't know what to do. Again, that was just one example. There are probably better ones out there, but Jules gave me permission to use her as an example so I did.

But the point is, finding the balance between giving the players too much information, and giving them too little. In the above post we at least knew what our goal was. We wanted to stop the creature. And we knew what our weapon was, the glowing bubble. We didn't know how to use it, but we knew we had it. In a tabletop adventure, where you decide things in real time, this would have been just fine. Over the course of a few minutes and a few dice rolls, we would have figured out how to use the bubbles and moved on with the story. It doesn't always work that way in play-by-post though, and often the players will get tired of the thread before they ever figure it out.

So it's important that you pace your threads, lead the players when necessary, but still let them decide the overall course of where the thread is going to go. If you want them to assassinate the queen, you need to tell them that they are going to do that. How it comes about isn't that important, as long as the queen get's assassinated in the end and the story can progress. Or even if they decide to prevent the queen being assassinated, that's fine, but at least they knew that the story itself had something to do with the queen being assassinated. Now.. that's a more extreme example, but I hope I get my point across.

Here is another quote I found helpful:

Give players options

The first part of the solution is to avoid it in the first place. Avoid highly linear plots. If a particular plot point needs to be visited, or a particular enemy needs to be defeated, you create a risk that the players will get stuck. If your plot is more open ended, the players can try other option if one path appears to be a dead end.

If your game has a relatively focused plot it is important to ensure that the characters always have at least one semi-obvious way to move onward. This path needs to be practical. If the characters will not follow a particular path for any given reason (moral reasons, financial reasons), that path isn't really practical.

But not too many options

Be wary of the other side of the coin. If you are running a highly open ended game with no clear goal or purpose your players may be blocking on too many options. Some people find a blank sheet of liberating, but many find it intimidating. Having an nearly infinite number of potential actions can be similarly intimidating. If you're running an open ended game and your players regularly block you may need to create a bit more focus and a slightly more linear plot.


Again, this falls back to the balancing act between leading your players, and letting them lead themselves. If you have a story to tell, don't be afraid to push the players along when they need it. But don't make it seem like you are pushing. Drop subtle (or if necessary, not so subtle) hints as to where they should go or what they should do. Never assume your players are psychic. Which brings me to my next quote:

Check your assumptions

Keep in mind that players may be unaware of something that seems obvious to you. You create and control the world, within the game you are omniscient. Your players are not, they only know what you tell them. (This has been compared to the players exploring your world with a flashlight.) Players may have gaps in their knowledge. If players are blocking and you find yourself thinking, "Well, obviously they need to do such-and-such," examine your assumptions. Why is that obvious? Check that the players share those assumptions. You may have assumptions about the game world that they don't share. The players may have glossed over an important clue; it seems irrelevant to them so they forgot about it. As you consider assumptions ask your players to find out what assumptions they are carrying.


Things won’t always be obvious to your player. They don't know what you are thinking, so you need to make sure to examine your posts and make sure there is enough information there for the player to deduce what you want them to deduce without too much effort. You don't want to force them to metagame, you don't want them to have to go ask their friends what they should do. They need to be able to figure it out for themselves.

In the end, it's all about moving the story onward. At the tabletop, it's quite obvious when the players are stumped, and if they haven't figured it out after an hour, you can probably safely bet that they wont figure it out any time soon and just tell them the answer and move on. But in play-by-post, a player taking days or even weeks to respond isn't that unusual. You have no way of knowing if they are just taking a while or if they are stumped. Now it would be nice if they would just tell you when they are having a problem, but we all know that almost never happens. People are afraid to make themselves look bad, or offend, or whatever, so they keep it to themselves, fume, complain to friends, and never figure it out. So, as a storyteller, it is your job to make sure that doesn't happen before you ever hit submit. Make sure your posts includes everything the player needs to move the story forward. Even if moving the story forward means they don't find anything out, you need to give them something.

Never be afraid to guide your players along. It's better to lead too much than to have your thread die because the players couldn't figure out what to do. If you can't find that careful balance, then don't be afraid to lend a helping hand. It's great when players figure things out for themselves, but sometimes they just can’t.

So.. um.. as per my usual way of ending scraps, I am just going to stop now.

~V
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[Verilian/Sira's Scrapbook] The Truth.. as I See It

Postby Verilian on October 2nd, 2012, 9:31 pm

The Video Game Mentality


This just popped into my mind, so I figured I'd add it here.

Another issue, involved with everything I said above, is what I call the video game mentality. In a video game, a player can be dropped in a room with no idea what they are supposed to do, no overhead voice giving them advice, and the room can even be pitch black in some cases. In a video game they are able to walk around, click on random items, and just in general experiment until something happens.

This doesn't work in PbP. Let's say you drop me in a room with a table, a hidden door (that I don't know is there), a book shelf, a wine cabinet, and a corpse.

So.. in my first post I am probably going to walk over to the corpse. That's what I'd do in a video game also. I'll examine it. Then I'll wait a few days and you'll say there was nothing on the corpse. So now I go over to the wine cabinet. A few days later you tell me there was nothing useful. So then I go to the table, and so on, until I've gone to everything. Now.. unless something makes that hidden door visible, I don't have any magical talents (like the elves from dnd who can sense hidden doors automatically, sort of) that tell me the door is there. I might never know, and waste weeks walking in circles without ever checking that area where the door is. Eventually you are going to have to tell me, or give me some hint to check that spot, or I might never find it.

The other option is what I am calling the pitch black room. You end your post with something like, "..and the door opens and you find a room inside."

...great. What's in the room? What am I supposed to do in the room. You gave me no info on what the room looks like, so now I have to waste a post or two (or maybe even more) looking around the room because you didn't describe it in the first post. I still might not even know what's significant about this room.

In a video game I could go and click on every object, every single object, and even every inch of the wall, in a matter of minutes.

In play by post that could take a year.

So the point of all this is to remember that Miz is not a video game, and it is not tabletop. It is play by post. Which means mod posts need to be informative, and give enough information that the player can do... something. Anything. Anything that moves the story forward, without taking a year to do.

..and.. yeah... >.>

~V
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[Verilian/Sira's Scrapbook] The Truth.. as I See It

Postby Verilian on October 9th, 2012, 2:52 pm

Hey everybody, sorry I haven't been around much the past few days. I'm having to play catch up at work, but I should be all caught up today, then I'll start posting to all my threads. Thanks for being patient!

~V
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[Verilian/Sira's Scrapbook] The Truth.. as I See It

Postby Sira on October 9th, 2012, 10:28 pm

My little fairy is all grown up now


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About a year ago

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Now
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[Verilian/Sira's Scrapbook] The Truth.. as I See It

Postby Verilian on October 10th, 2012, 9:29 pm

Fyi. 24 hours ago I posted. Nobody has posted anything, in any scrapbook, in the past 24 hours. Lets see what happens this 24 hour period.
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[Verilian/Sira's Scrapbook] The Truth.. as I See It

Postby Damian on October 11th, 2012, 7:11 pm

Posting because it is almost 24 hours. Wag wag
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[Verilian/Sira's Scrapbook] The Truth.. as I See It

Postby Verilian on October 15th, 2012, 2:05 pm

Okay, so I disappeared of the face of the planet for the past few days. I had some virus called hands, feet, and mouth disease. Basically, I had a really bad fever for a couple days, then my hands and feet broke out into painful sores. I still have the sores, but the fever is gone. Anyway, I have to catch up on stuff from the work I missed Friday, but I'll also try to catch up on some of my posts. Thanks for your patience everyone!

~V
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Postby Phoenix on October 15th, 2012, 4:04 pm

Isn't it just hand foot and mouth? Stop pluralizing your disease for effect!
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[Verilian/Sira's Scrapbook] The Truth.. as I See It

Postby Verilian on October 15th, 2012, 4:47 pm

I don't know what it's actually called, but I have two hands, two feet, and one mouth and they are all affected.
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