[Caelum's Scrapbook] Use Your Words.

[Caelum]

Hi, Sayana! Thanks for the insightful reply. I think I should clarify that I am not composing a revision or even an addition to the existing grading guide. These scraps were my goal. However, if an official addition to the guide is something actually desired, then I’m willing to tackle that. Approval would be required first and I am not entirely sure whether it’s something the staff wants a player composing as the original guide was a Staff Project headed by a Staff Member. Anyway, I’m happy to oblige in whatever direction. The skills you’ve pointed out I’ve found are commonly misunderstood/overlooked. There are several others that are as well, including Intelligence which I will address next. The Collective I’s (Intelligence, Investigation, Interrogation, & Intimidation) are absolutely a common source of confusion. This is how I have found it is best explained in the past: Intelligence is all about information, aka “data”. Acquiring it, analyzing it, organizing it, acting on it, etc. Intelligence at its lower levels can and should be awarded for active attempts to gather and analyze information. This is where, if Deduction is in fact a skill, Intelligence and Deduction should be awarded. However, this is why I think Deduction should not be a skill because it is thoroughly covered in the lower levels of Intelligence. Because Intelligence has to do with data in all its active forms, it follows that Investigation, Intimidation, and Interrogation are often awarded along with it because they are common methods of acquiring active data and building and maintaining an data communications network. This is not always the case. Context is everything. Lying or Deception should not be its own skill. It should be Acting. Or Subterfuge. Or Persuasion. Or Negotiation. Even Rhetoric with an Intelligence kicker. Depends on the context. Examples are a good idea. I’ll see if I can’t pull some existing ones. I am strongly against a lore quota. PCs should be awarded the relative and intelligent lores they earn in thread, no more and no less. To set a quota is to leave room for trying to meet it and then handing out bullshit or comedic lores to fill it up which only works to degrade the rule system as a whole and open up the possibility for OOC Manipulation. On the flip side it also potentially robs people of earned lores if the “quota” for a thread was reached only halfway through reading. Please, I beg you, do not do this. More later! I have to take care of a thing.

[Sayana]

Ahh, I misunderstood that it was merely supposed to be a single scrap post. I think I was secretly hoping that I might be able to pass on the lessons I learned or troubles I came across so that new graders would be just that much better (or at least informed). Thanks for the answers you provided. That clarifies several of my questions particularly in regards to intelligence and how to award a skill when a character is lying. Also, just to clarify, the idea of a 'lore quota' was just a loose term for the way I would subconsciously try to award lores. Like if I were to go through a two page thread and there was only one or two lores for a character I would scan through it again to try to beef it up. Conversely, if for a two page thread I already had 10 or 12 lores, I might stop looking as hard for new ones. It wasn't like I was aiming for a specific number, but due to the fact that lores are not as well defined as skills, it's easier to become subjective with them.

[Caelum]

For the record, you have totally managed to provide useful information. If you have any other skills with equally as helpful remarks and explanations, I hope you share them. To revisit the “lore quota” thing. To be perfectly honest, my first reaction to reading that was what the actual fuck. Obviously, I softened my reply in text. I appreciate your clarification because my first take on what you meant was that were graders who actually went about giving all their threads 5 lores or whatever. That would be breaking the rules, not just a matter of opinion. Again, thanks for clarifying because I was about to flip out.

[Khida]

This is all good food for thought. Thanks for sharing, both of you! I'm a shade behind the conversation, I think, but here are my two cents: Regarding lore 'quotas'... When it comes to awarding lores, my rule of thumb is that I try to give an associated lore whenever I award any XP for a skill. It's not anything hard-and-fast, and it's more a minimum than a maximum. But as a guideline, I find it helps me catch some of the more method-type lores, especially for relatively subtle skills like Planning and Organization. And deduction... Personally, I don't think Deduction should be a skill. Deduction amounts to 'the ability to take in information, analyze it, and arrive at a result'. Taking in and analyzing information also comes under Observation/Intelligence. Arriving at a result... is something everyone does all the time. Whether it's a right or wrong result has at least as much to do with the information going in, and the knowledge base one has to call upon, as any deduction 'skill'. That makes it a matter of lores and awareness, not XP. For example, I have a current thread where Khida has been introduced to the word 'nakivak'. There's enough context surrounding it that she could deduce it has something to do with sex/concubinage. If she had a little more knowledge about that side of human(oid) affairs, she would. But she doesn't have that knowledge, so no matter what her Deduction skill might be, she does not get to make that conclusion. Also, any PC's ability to make deductions from information in-thread is going to be constrained by the ability of their player to do the same. If your character earns themselves up to 'Master Deduction', and they are never wrong about a conclusion made from even the skimpiest information, the only way to accomplish that as a writer is for you to also be aware of what the right answer is -- Every. Single. Time. That's one thing if you're the sole author of a tale, in control of every aspect of the scenario; it's another in the context of collaborative threading. Similarly, the capability for a character to think out-of-the-box -- lateral or creative mental jumps, as you put it -- depends on the capacity of the writer to do the same. That makes it really hard to regulate skill levels. Anyone can play below their own level, but playing higher? Skills must by definition be trainable. How much can you really train someone to think creatively or out-of-the-box? A player can read up on other skills in order to be able to write more and more comprehensively about them, a sort of virtual training which then is expressed in the character's applications of the skill. What reference do you lean on in order to portray your character getting better at lateral thinking?

[Aoren]

Howdy!

The Katie, in a most gracious and magnanimous gesture has allowed this humble peon to tack on a follow-up to Her insightful musings. >.>

In watching the stellar work that all of the Graders have completed I thought it might be time to offer a little bit of a blurb on some of my experiences in terms of Grading here on Mizahar.

Grading is not a straightforward task.

I think a lot of people forget that as we do more and more of them over time. Every thread is unique. Every player approaches every skill and situation differently. While certain threads might have an overarching focus (i.e. training threads) there is often more to them that the surface skills for which the thread is being written. Especially for threads that are devoted to extensive character development. You should never approach a thread as if every skill, lore, or consequence is going to be clear cut and laid out for you. The majority of players are here to write a compelling story. It’s not their job to lay it out for a Storyteller or a Grader the exact skills they’re using in every post of every thread they’re writing.

I really don’t like referring to Mizahar’s system of awards as “Grades” because in truth you are “reviewing” the threads. In that review the biggest thing that is expected of you is to take your time, read through and into the details, and offer an assessment or critique based on what is written.

That’s a big thing. Take your time. It is better that you take three hours to review one thread than speed through six threads in one hour and leave players wanting. That is not what they deserve and more importantly, that’s not what you would want either. It is easy to lose sight of the fact that reviews (Grades) exist as a measurement of quality. Not quantity.

All of that aside, I’m going to take some time to explain something about the differences in the level of skill players possess.

Novice

Being a Novice means the character knows nothing about the skill.

False.

You can be unskilled in something but possess a great deal of knowledge about it. For instance, Player 1 possesses 10 lores detailing the theories and steps behind Philtering. He only has 1 EXP point in Philtering however. Player 1 is KNOWLEDGEABLE about Philtering, he simply lacks the practical application of the skill itself. How this affects him is in him actually using the skill. Here’s an example.

Joe stood looking at the equipment assembled on the lab table. He considered what was in front of him. He had the alembic. He had the coil. The straining cloth was in its proper place. He even had the mortar and pestle he needed to grind the ingredients appropriately. With a deep breath, Joe took up a match striking it against the surface of the table. With as steady hands as he could manage he lit the burner, poured unpurified water into the container and fastened it to the ring holster. Stepping back, Joe admired his handiwork.

“Oh shoot!” He exclaimed reaching out to affix the charcoal treated cloth to the nozzle of the alembic then attached the appropriate hoses to send the steam through the purification coil. Rushing to the opposite end he set up the proper receptacle that would receive the purified water.

What happened in this situation? Let’s say Joe had lores explaining the equipment he needed. He also had the lores detailing what the initial steps of Philtering were. In this scenario he used that knowledge to get everything assembled. But! His hands were unsteady. He checked, rechecked and assessed the situation to make sure all was in order. He even skipped ahead of himself and didn’t completely set up thing properly. His knowledge of how it theoretically should have worked was there. He was putting that knowledge to use in the manner expected of a beginner.

Let’s move on to another skill to serve as an example. Cooking. When I approach a skill like this, I understand it in the terms of something like Cooking is the application of making refined cuisine. For instance, Joe has 0 EXP in cooking. That does not necessarily mean he doesn’t know how to feed himself. If that were true then all characters without this experience are either starving, eating things raw, poisoning themselves or going to taverns three times a day to eat their meals. In some cities this is neither possible nor practical. It also just doesn’t make sense. The whole of Mizahar is filled with grown adults who, the majority of them don’t have any experience in cooking, and thus don’t know how to cook anything? Personally, a little common sense goes a long way when you look at something like this. Let’s look at an example of a situation where someone with 0 EXP in Cooking is making a meal.

Joe skewered the hunk of rabbit’s meat upon the spit. He set it over the fire then plopped down watching the meat on occasion as he waited. Sitting there he reached into his pack sifting through a few jars of herbs that he had. He peered at the green leafy plant in the jar chewing on his bottom lip for a moment. With a shrug he opened the container and tipped the jar covering the meat in a cascade of what he hoped would help bring flavor to an otherwise bland meal. When it came time to eat he grasped the spit gingerly a look of excitement on his face.

Joe rotated the rabbit meat examining it for a moment. There were parts that were a bit charred. He was almost certain one edge hadn’t been cooked all the way through. Biting into the meat he crooked his mouth thoughtfully as he chewed. The taste of the herb was overwhelming in this bite. He couldn’t even get a flavor for the meat. With another bite he found that the herb hadn’t left any flavoring at all. The meat was gamey and bland. Still, it was something to fill his belly. It would have to do.

This is, really, an appropriate stage for a Novice Cook to be at. He might logically know that a piece of meat should be cooked all the way through. Is he attentive enough to make that happen every time? Probably not. He’s not good at measuring his spices. He just dumps it on there and wings it. The food is either too overwhelmingly flavored or it’s bland with no real middle ground for appreciation. That’s okay. Notice, he actually was cooking. He just wasn’t cooking well. The key here is, what is he learning? He's getting a grasp on the fundamentals of how to refine cooking. Trial and error.

On to something a bit more abstract, magic. Let’s take a look at Joe in a situation where he is using one of the more passive magics, Auristics. In this scenario Joe has a basic knowledge of what the magic can do. Again, he simply isn’t very adept at doing it.

Joe frowned. The novice Aurist prodded his djed into motion. It was slow and unwilling to cooperate. He gave it another mental nudge before it coated his eyes as he examined the man in front of him. Slowly the aura came into focus and with that the initial whisperings of information across his consciousness. Joe’s eyes roamed over the expanse of the aura. Little by little the emotions filtered through to him. Boredom. Distraction.

Boredom? What reason did this man have to be bored? There was plenty of excitement going on all around them. From across the connection that he now shared with the man he became aware of a hardness to him. Strength. Unmoving. He could tell even from this distance that he smelled of iron, earth and…was that blood?

The man shifted casting his gaze toward Joe. He frowned at Joe. The Aurist stiffened averting his gaze though focus on the man’s aura hadn’t stopped. Joe shifted nervously. Something flittered along his consciousness then. Irritation. It was quickly followed by the sharp stab of aggression. Joe broke the hold he had on his djed. He moved to step away, get away, but found his limbs moving a tad bit slower. His body felt lethargic. Oh dear…

Alrighty! Believe it or not this is a completely doable scenario for a novice Aurist. Information through an aura become clearer the longer one focuses on that Aura. Everything an Aurist can do is accessible to even a beginning Aurist. It simply takes longer to perceive. It also leaves them more tired. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean they STRUGGLE to do it. It just takes more time.

Something I’ve noticed a lot when people are reviewing magic is that they get caught up in how much the characters is STRUGGLING. The same goes for a lot of Novice skills across the board. This isn’t necessarily an accurate way of approaching a Novice skill. Being a Novice is being a pupil. A learner. Are they working through the fundamentals of the skill? Are they testing its basic techniques? Are they striving to get a grip on those principles? What is the character actually learning?

When it comes to Personal Magic, while the character might not inherently know the full scope of what the magic could do, they aren’t necessarily barred from doing it. It’s not that they CAN’T do it, there’s just a very bad consequence FOR doing it. Which is, in many cases, part of learning and I feel this is true across the board. Often there is much more to be gained in suffering the consequences than outright telling someone they simply can’t do it. If they are blatantly just ignoring the parameters of being a learner (aka Novice) then that’s when you bleed over into the realm of godmodding which is a different can of worms entirely.

That’s all I’ll write about for now. Perhaps I’ll go into what I feel are good examples of Competent, Expert and Master stuff at a later date, maybe even some rambling on Overgiving (because the Powers That Be know I was confused as all get out about how that should work. I still am sometimes.)

To end my babbling I just want to say that one of your biggest resources is each other. The Staff. Reading other threads that are both poignant and complicated. Compare your grades to see how one person might have done it differently and perhaps caught something you might have missed. Bottom line: talk to each other. All the time. It's a great way to learn more.

[Keene Ward]

I agree with Khida on Deduction.

It reminds of Detection, where it's mostly just a synonym for a most specific Observation that revolves more around lores than anything else.

I've been noticing questionable grades as well, and I'm glad you've taken the time to point some stuff out, Miss Lady Caelum! I won't lie though... I suck at lores. There are some people who really like "social lores", but I honestly don't know how to award them. When I award a lore, I think of it as specific relevant knowledge. So if someone is a Nakivak or a runaway slave or something of the like where the knowledge is actually something that could be later used, I'll award it. Same with skills, I'll try to award a lore that is relevant, but what I've found most times is there aren't a lot of instances where that works very well.

I'll elaborate because I wrote that, and I confused myself a little:

So say you have Joe Schmoe and Sally Stupid doing something fun together. Jos is talking about, say, Leth and chatting up about how great that god is. He doesn't have the lore for it and neither does Sally, but they both chat as if they already do.

On one hand, I could award a lore about Leth. On the other, they already "know", and it's something you don't necessarily need a lore for. So I get confused, because I'm not sure if I should award a lore (or worse, what the lore should even be because of the manner in which they were talking about him).

With skills, say Joe is wielding his rapier and is doing all this stuff with it in terms of techniques, stances, etc. He's at expert, but he doesn't have the lores for what he's doing, but what he's doing is in line with his skill level.

Do you retroactively award lores then? If so, do you award each specific form and stance or give a slightly broader "Rapier Form: Fencing" or something? Or, alternatively, even though he has the skill level, because he hasn't been taught those things and there's no prior indication that he took the time to work to figure them out (intuition being something that I see a lot in threads), do you ask them not to do that without the proper lores?

There are plenty of threads I've graded where lores are in your face and you award them because no duh. From what I've seen, the people with the "sneakier" skills tend to have easier to award lores because they're actually doing things, learning thing, realizing things. Then, there are people who are just... I don't know. Doing them, if that makes sense?

What are your thoughts on this? Or... better, I suppose, does any of that make sense?

[Sayana]

Caelum: Yeah, sorry. I didn't mean to make you freak out there with the lores. Hehe. But still, even if people loosely aim for certain numbers, it would be good to better clarify what constitutes as a lore and what does not. The tricky thing with lores is that they are not as concrete and very dependent on the context. But maybe if types of lores were categorized (like location, people, skill, event, starting) and overall better described then it might be easier for new graders to decide what is a lore and what is not. Other skills that are sometimes overlooked are: - Land Navigation Specifically in regards to not getting lost within a city. It's usually much more obvious when talking about not getting lost while traveling in the woods, but a character who successfully visits various places within a city (and especially if they comment about going left or straight or whatever) should get land navigation points. However, I try not to award points here if someone else is doing the 'navigating'. For example, if a group of people are traveling in the woods, but it is an NPC that is leading the way, then none of the PCs are actually making sure the group doesn't get lost. - Cartography While it states it in the skill description, it should be noted that this applies to both making maps and reading maps (or otherwise using them). The latter is not as obvious by just reading the skill name. - Endurance Usually I only award it when there is some sort of "pain" involved. Either pain from a combat injury or pain from legs straining or sides cramping from running too hard. This pain has to be written/described of course. Some people are even more generous with this one. But this is definitely a skill that is often overlooked. - Bodybuilding On a similar note, bodybuilding is often overlooked. I'm still trying to figure out what truly constitutes for bodybuilding points, but I tend to award it if there is a lot of strenuous exercise or if the character is lifting/holding something very heavy for extended periods of time. Khida: That makes a lot of sense in regards to "deduction". Also you raise a good point about a skill needing to be trainable and doable at different skill levels regardless of the writer's personal ability at the skill. Though it just occurred to me that "investigation" might have a similar issue if the character is a master investigator but the writer may not be able to successfully analyze the information. Unless that's intelligence. Ack... My head is starting to spin. But I'll try to keep these ideas in mind. Aoren: Thanks for the great examples. I know for my own character development I aim to give at least an introductory lesson of sorts before starting a new skill, but it's nice to know that most people can (sort of) do most skills even without any experience in them. I thought it was interesting that you said that reviews (grades) are a measure of quality and not quantity. I personally find them a measure of neither. Grades, to me, are a measure of your character doing skills. No more, no less. Of course, if there's not much description then it's hard to award the grades but I think writing quality is entirely different. Someone can write a fabulous high quality character development thread (and maybe only get 5 points in philosophy), whereas they could get a combined total of 40-50 points in an intensive training thread that might not be so compelling. Keene: I've also had issues with lores that way. Usually I just award them so it's clear in future that the character knows them (assuming that they seemed plausible based on the skill level). As a PC I find it tricky to gain lores for Sayana's history since I cannot flashback in Ahnatep with her (due to it being closed). Consequently, I try to bring up parts of her past through storytelling and dance and general conversation, and I'm appreciative when graders award lores regarding it. Also, as much as some players dislike "people lores", I actually really appreciate them for Sayana because it furthers her character growth as a highly social character. Once or twice I've even used them to check up who Sayana's friends are (ie. who to invite to an event or party). Though it's usually safer for me to look through my threadlist instead so no one is missed.

[Caelum]

Khida: I wholeheartedly endorse everything you have said regarding Deduction not being an applicable skill. I have been wrong about skills in the past, having what amounts to an opposing viewpoint from an existing rule and not realizing it. Aware of this flaw, I try to continually align myself with the rules and not merely my interpretation of them. Bottom line, I saw Deduction around so much I just thought I was wrong and the rule was what it was. Aoren, Self-Styled Humble Peon: I also dislike the term "grade", but I don't really like the term "review" either. Maybe evaluation? It fails to matter. I just hate for anyone to mistake my meaning when I remark upon a thread. When grading, I never critique. Nobody wants me to critique. I don't even want me to critique. I feel that actual Peer Reviews should be called critiques, but that's a different story. Your examples are fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time to draw them up. I want to further stress your message of communication too because I feel that is a terribly important factor in this. People, please talk to your graders. Talk to your STs. Talk to each other. Talk to me! (I like to talk, clearly.) Keene & Sayana: I feel like I should apologize for even mentioning lores. As some know, I have really strong opinions about them. In an attempt to avoid getting on full out tirade regarding them that may or may not be fully relevant or helpful, I'm going to remain brief. Please don't mistake my brevity for annoyance. (I think you're both awesome and I love that you have chimed in here. Please keep chiming in.) I'm merely trying to spare all of you from unnecessary venting. Here we go. Lores are knowledge that cannot be expanded upon. If they could be, they would be skills. They are meant to further define the knowledge base of a skilled PC and to help in preventing god-modding and OOC manipulation. For example, a doctor who has 90 XPs in Medicine cannot claim to be a master of the cesarean section if they do not have the lore for it. Due to their skill level and likelihood of a body of related lores they could still pull off a cesarean with some degree of success. However, to say with complete certainty that the doctor could perform that procedure safely and successfully would be wrong. It would be god-modding. This is why awarding appropriate and relevant lores is so important. Notably, this hasn't always happened. There are a number of older PCs, Caelum included, who do not have half the lores they should. This is because the lore system isn't always taken seriously, or graded appropriately, and also players don't always understand this until it is too late. In point of fact, I myself did not understand this because of the laissez-faire attitude until several years involvement in Mizahar. When I did finally understand the system, I was already missing whole swaths of earned lore that I was too ignorant at the time to request from the grader. I cannot imagine that I am the only one in this predicament. For that reason, I take effort to retroactively award lores while grading. Because, as Aoren so eloquently pointed out, not having XPs in a skill does not mean you have no knowledge of the subject, I will award "defensive stances" or "XYZ herbal remedy" when a PC actively employs that lore in their thread. The PC does not have to always be specifically taught and therefore learning a lore to be awarded it. They can simply be doing a thing and earn the lore. In fact, they can be teaching such a lore as that and be awarded it. Bottom line, use common sense. Obviously, not all lores can or should be awarded retroactively. Yes, there are absolutely some lores that hold a great deal more weight and potential than others and if there is any question whatsoever in your mind then you ought to ask someone. Talk to the staff. Talk to the player. Talk, talk, talk. Because if you retroactively award someone with knowledge of Windoak's role in the pantheon then I will be the very first to call bullshit. Finally, it is difficult to determine what another player may or may not find useful in the full course of their PCs life on Mizahar. For that reason, don't skimp on lores. You never know when one is going to come in handy for a player. People lores included because there are some very salient and important things to learn about a person that can be plot points down the road. (I didn't really keep that brief, did I?) Everyone: Thanks for being so damn smart and helpful.

[Gossamer]

Deduction is a skill. I award it all the time. I have had it awarded too me. I'm a bit confused as to why this conversation is taking place NOW rather than when we were writing the Grading Guide. All these same problems existed then and are not something new. Honestly, if people just understood skills more and followed the existing grading guide, we'd have a lot less issues.

I really want new things for Mizahar.... new ideas, new processes, new conclusions. I don't want rewrites of the same old thing and re-investigations of the same old issues. If we just TAUGHT graders to be better at picking out things.... or hell even got them to actually read threads instead of skim them (which I'm convinced is 99% of the problem) then we wouldn't have to have conversations like this.

I understand there are special interests involved. I get that. But just letting the existing grader pool be more informed and get more out of recognizing skills when they see them is far better than some advanced document that they will do the same thing with that they did with the existing grader guide... read it, shrug, and do their own thing.

I've kicked more graders out of RF and out of the program for THAT attitude than anything else. IF they even remotely start a sentence or finish one with...

"I feel that grading should...." No. No no no. Its not an opinion thing. It's how we do it here already.

[Caelum]

Don't worry, Jen. I'm not drafting up a grading guide addition. I'm just scrapping about advanced thread grading because you're absolutely right -- if more people were informed, took the time to understand how it works, and took the time to learn how to do it right then we wouldn't have so many special issues. As for Deduction, if you say it's a thing then it is a thing and I will award it. Not a problem. My opinion on whether or not it should be a thing is irrelevant to the existing rule.